Full Transcript Podcast Intro and Medical Disclaimer 0:00 You can't resolve the mold issue until you get rid of the moisture issue, and you can resolve to microtoxin issue till you got rid the bold issue. 0:06 One kind of it gets the other. 0:07 And so that's always the approach that we take is that 3M approach inside of a structure. 0:14 You've tried everything. 0:15 You changed your diet, you've detoxed, and you even moved homes. 0:18 And yet you still feel sick. 0:20 Headaches, brain fog, fatigue that no one can explain. 0:24 What if it's not you? 0:25 What is your environment? 0:27 Welcome to Mold Microtoxins and More. 0:29 I'm John Bode. 0:31 Each week I sit down with experts uncovering how mold, micro toxins, environmental exposures affect your health and what real recovery looks like. 0:39 Let's get into today's conversation. 0:42 The information provided on the Mold Pros Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice, 0:49 diagnosis, or treatment. 0:51 Listening to the podcast does not create a doctor-patient or professional-client relationship between you and the Podcast host, 0:56 guest, and Mould Pros. 0:58 The content shared should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advise, diagnoses, treatment, And always seek the medical advice of your 1:06 physician or qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding the medial condition, potential mold exposure, 1:12 or health concerns. 1:14 Never disregard professional medical advise or delay in seeking it because of something you heard on this podcast. 1:19 And while we strive to provide accurate and up-to-date information, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, 1:25 expressed or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, and suitability of all the information discussed. 1:31 And guest experience and outcomes discussed on this podcast are individual cases and should not be considered typical results. 1:36 Your situation may differ significantly. 1:40 As always, if you think you have a medical emergency, call your doctor or 911 immediately. 1:45 By listening to the Mold Pros podcast, you acknowledge that you understood this disclosure. 1:50 Imagine there's a slow drip from a sweating HVAC duct and you never see it. 1:55 The air conditioner keeps running, the house smells a little musty, and someone in your family has been coughing for months. 2:01 So where do you begin? 2:02 Is it with the person? 2:04 The building? 2:04 Or both? 2:06 Today, we're going to bring the two conversations together. 2:10 We'll talk about the symptoms that deserve a closer look and what to do when you discover water damage and how to tell whether the problem in the home
Guest Introduction and Clinical Approach 2:17 has actually been resolved. 2:19 Welcome to another episode of Mold Microtoxins and More. 2:22 Here we explore how our homes, our workplaces, and other environmental exposures may affect health. 2:27 And we bring medical and building professionals into the same conversation. 2:31 I'm your host, Jon Bode, co-founder of The Mould Pros. 2:34 My special guest today is Dr. 2:36 Imran Khan, an internal medicine physician with training in functional medicine at Internal Healing and Wellness MD, serving the woodlands in Greater Houston area. 2:45 Dr Khan. 2:46 Thank you for joining me. 2:48 Thank you very much for having me, John. 2:49 I appreciate the invite, but glad that glad we have the call or glad to have it on the podcast today. 2:56 It's kind of interesting. 2:57 Actually happened to be in Houston today, turn diffusely. 3:01 Didn't, didn't plan on it, uh, bit, found myself just on east side of town. 3:06 So, we're near, shoot. 3:08 We should have done this together life, before we tear into it too much. 3:15 Oh, I said maybe, can you share a little bit about your practice and your approach with the patients whose symptoms may sometimes not have an obvious explanation? 3:26 So I had the benefit, you know, taking the general curiosity from internal medicine as that framework where I was trained in. 3:31 And I got, five, six years ago, interested in functional medicine, which helped kind of open up some of these concepts on microtoxins and mold and the 3:40 whole environment, the world that's kind not really well explored in traditional medical training. 3:45 with internal medicine residency as well. 3:47 So that kind of opened up an avenue to have a conversation with patients who will bring up that subject. 3:53 When I've had exposure to mold, something happened to me, there's water and I don't feel well, what do I do? 4:00 Help. 4:00 And that's generally kind a general distress call that I pick up from patients, who have this experience. 4:05 That we look into this, we don't gaslight the patients. 4:07 We listen to their experiences. 4:09 we understand that there can be situations where people's health can affected by exposures to water damage, mold. 4:16 And then we assess them through our tests at our clinic to look for burdens and symptoms of, to at least quantify the symptoms and also measure some of 4:24 the tests to help us kind of get a direction to say, yes we believe that they might be a mold factor at play here. 4:29 So our clinic doesn't necessarily ignore, we don't do any type of ignoring of symptoms. 4:34 We listen to the patient and we are respectful in understanding that there are adverse health conditions that can happen with mold exposures. 4:44 Very good. 4:45 With Houston, I live in South Florida, but the environments are very, very similar. 4:52 Extremely humid here in Houston, a little warm. 4:57 Of course you have all the storms that come with the hurricanes and that sort of thing. 5:00 So this place is like a perfect storm for having environmental exposures. 5:06 We are actually, the reason why I'm in, Houston is we're actually on a commercial project. 5:11 That's a larger project that actually ironically had a mold issue due to HVAC related issues. 5:19 I know that's one of the things that we'll talk about today. 5:21 It's pretty common. 5:23 in this area as well as the entire of the south to have zero philic mold blooms or mold problems due to either increased humidity or just lack of proper 5:35 HVAC systems. 5:38 When you talk with your patients, living in an environment just like this, what questions do you typically see or do frequently address with you patients 5:48 that help you understand what their environmental exposures are in a climate like these, or help them understand their exposure could be? 5:56 It's a great question. 5:57 So on a general kind of intake, let's say the patient's not coming in particularly with awareness of a water damage or mold, 6:04 and there's more of just a generally visit. 6:06 It has been a common practice. 6:08 I've added that into my intake questionnaires that I will often even ask, have you had any type of water damaged in the home? 6:15 So maybe the necessary link it to the fact that they're feeling anything or maybe make that link themselves. 6:21 But to know that oh yeah last week or last year there was a pipe or there's a roof there some type of issue and maybe the thinking more file under repair 6:28 and that's it. 6:29 So that part of the intake history to see about water exposures especially if it's inside the home.
Mold Exposure Clues and Symptom Patterns 6:35 I tried to ask that question as far as you know normally you think about occupation exposure related to people's work. 6:42 I factor that in now that I'm living in the south in Houston that one of the home environmental exposures, what's the risk here of water damage and mold exposure? 6:51 So that is part of intake process. 6:55 That makes complete sense. 6:58 We always try to take that even one step further. 7:01 When you start out on the inspection path, you're always trained about inspecting water damaged buildings. 7:08 And that's extremely important to look for areas where there's been pipe leaks and that sort of thing, or flashing leaks or roofing leaks. 7:18 traditional water damage, what we find, ironically, most of our work actually isn't based on water damaged. 7:25 And so we always encourage individuals to think about it in terms of not water-damaged buildings, but more of moisture-affected buildings. 7:39 So the EPA recommends that we maintain relative humidity between 30 and 50% to avoid xerophilic mold growth like xerofilic molds being penicillium or aspergillus, 7:49 et cetera. 7:49 And so it's very common to actually have major mold issues and never had a water leak at all. 7:56 Over, I would say over 80% of our work comes from just humidity blooms. 8:01 So it's it sometimes is more than what what kind of meets the eye. 8:06 That's why a good assessment can kind help out with understanding what those root causes of moisture could be. 8:14 So when you when do you see a patient they come to your office and you start talking about environmental exposures or you're going through their symptoms, 8:24 at what point do you say, okay, hey, maybe it's the house or maybe to work. 8:28 What kind of clues you into going down that path? 8:32 Because some of these symptoms can be attributed to other things besides, obviously, environmental exposers, right? 8:38 So how do we kind to differentiate that? 8:40 That is absolutely correct. 8:42 So the symptoms for mold could be very wide, far ranging, not necessarily the same, could variable. 8:47 And the biggest kind of confusing factor for families is there could multiple individuals in the house and not all will have the presentation. 8:55 Maybe one person will be have an extreme response and everyone else appears normal or closer to normal. 9:00 That's what makes it a little bit trickier. 9:03 To be honest and fair, in medical community, there's a bit of an element of hear no evil, see no My first experience was when I was an undergraduate, 9:14 a little bit of work on a project for mold to be measured in the lab. 9:18 We were looking at some of the mycotoxins. 9:21 for a famous mold, like a Statue Botrus, Chitarra. 9:24 And I remember then advanced, I did a little bit of work, you know, just more basic chemistry, basic science with that. 9:29 Fast forward to residency, remember talking with an infectious disease doctor and the question, for some reason, came about mold. 9:35 It was just very abruptly said, oh, that's all been disproven, sick building syndrome, and that all, yeah, it's gone. 9:40 I thought that was a bit odd because I spent about a year of that, an undergraduate, looking to them, well, there was something there, 9:46 but all right. 9:47 And then, but found interesting from that experience was that there is an undertone in medicine and a lot of patients will tell me that when they come 9:53 in saying, look, I have these concerns. 9:55 It's there's a little element of dismissal. 9:57 So that being said is Symptoms could be wide and varied so that sometimes doesn't always help you because it could Be a range the exposure part is what 10:05 I'm looking for So it kind of another thing you touched on was that the mustiness I will always also ask about did you notice any outside of obvious water damage, 10:13 which is an easy one But as far as mustyness I've even had some patients that would make a comment that you know I noticed when I moved into this new home 10:21 that everything's like sweaty Like they would notice it on their, like a plunder to get the water, the condensation was present. 10:27 And in those situations, it was a very technical problem. 10:29 I mean, that was more than I would expect any person to figure out, but it led down a pathway that eventually had that patient understand that there was 10:37 mismatch in the way the HVAC was designed and the humidity wasn't being managed. 10:40 Some air was meeting, was mixing, something a little bit complicated with the design flaw. 10:44 But a kind of a general one that most people can kind walk away from is either they see evidence of water damage or they can smell or sense the mustiness 10:53 or the humidity is quite high. 10:55 Not everyone is going to look at the thermostat and look up the humid percentages, but I would encourage it. 10:59 And the percentage range that you mentioned is kind is helpful. 11:04 A lot of people sometimes have that percentage rise. 11:07 So if they're controlling the temperature in their homes, let's say they are going away for the daytime and maybe they let the temperatures go up. 11:14 You know, what's the humidity doing as well with that? 11:15 So there's just the definite elements to look at there. 11:18 But I generally would look those two elements, to ask. 11:22 And that helps open up the conversation to say, you know what, if there is an exposure here and you're having some symptoms that are hard to tack down, 11:29 maybe it's helpful to then do a little bit of a cast a wider net and look a toxic burden assessment. 11:36 So that's like, for example, like when I like to use it, the total toxic burning. 11:40 And I guess that's a pretty good job in my clinic for catching things, or at least helping us to start now narrowing down the direction of, 11:46 hey, I'm seeing this signature here. 11:48 Now let's go backwards and say, where could this come from? 11:51 You've cleaned, repainted, and replaced filters. 11:54 And still, you're not getting better. 11:57 Headache, fatigue, brain fog. 11:59 The doctors can't explain it, but your environment can. 12:02 At The Mold Pros, we specialize in uncovering what's hidden in plain sight. 12:06 Our environmental testing looks beyond surface mold, identifying bacteria, volatile organic compounds, and even micro toxins in the air that you breathe. 12:16 Then we correlate those results with your clinical data, showing how your space may be affecting your health. 12:22 Next, We use our patented remediation process to safely remove toxins, restore balance and prevent them from returning. 12:30 It's more than just a cleanup. 12:32 It is a science-based system designed to help your body heal by healing the environment first. 12:38 If you're ready to breathe freely again, visit TheMoldPros.com and schedule your free consultation. 12:44 Because wellness doesn't start in the doctor's office, it starts where you live. 12:50 Very good. 12:50 Well, that again makes a lot of sense. 12:52 The approach is data-driven approach, which is something that we believe wholeheartedly in. 13:00 backtrack a little bit on, again, when you go in, you know, a Spectre 101, first thing you tell us, olfactory.
Environmental Testing and Source Control 13:06 Use your nose when we go into a structure is to smell. 13:10 You mentioned that musty odor that can come from microbial volatile organic compounds. 13:18 So essentially, certain molds, as it's feeding on surfaces, will off-gas, right? 13:23 So it is absorbing nutrients off the substrate, and then if there's an input, there has got to be an output. 13:29 And so it will create that musty odor. 13:31 That's great. 13:33 There's actually testing for that. 13:34 When we go in, if we do volatile-organic compound testing at home, we can actually test for microbial volatile organics compounds to see if they are molds 13:43 that are producing those. 13:46 secondary metabolites. 13:47 So that's a great place to start. 13:51 We mirror the exact same thing as you're going through and you are doing that toxic burden with the patient. 13:59 A good assessment, which we can dig into a little bit later on, is actually going back and running the same parallel panels inside the home. 14:07 So if that microtoxin report is showing that you have ocrotaxin A or gliotoxins, et cetera, then understanding where that exposure is coming from is critically important. 14:17 And so running a parallel testing inside home can really help narrowly define that. 14:24 That's fantastic. 14:27 Do you have patients that come to you and say all the time, this is, Hey, I think it's mold making me sick. 14:33 Or is that something you kind of have to tease out and go through a process of elimination or did he, did they have line of sight that, 14:40 that maybe it was the environment that's causing issues. 14:44 That's also a great question. 14:45 So the first part, you know, we're talking about was maybe the general kind of the uninitiated, so to speak, patient coming and saying, 14:51 I have this suspicion or something's off. 14:53 There's another subgroup of patients that'll come in saying there's something wrong. 14:58 I've been having I moved into a new apartment. 15:00 Typically, the story goes like this. 15:07 congestion, brain fog, fatigue, frequent illnesses, upper respiratory concerns, a whole, whole range, you know, skin conditions, 15:14 et cetera. 15:16 And then usually that initiates, uh, cause it goes on and on. 15:19 People start sometimes figuring out that it's related to, Hey, when I'm home, it was when they go away for a trip or a vacation. 15:25 It's a little better. 15:26 Or they might notice things like, let's say they're a student and maybe the grades are dropping. 15:31 And if that progresses, that usually initiates some type of search wall. 15:35 They narrow down that, hey, I was fine until I moved into this place, this apartment, his home. 15:40 Since I've moved here, something's right. 15:41 And then they start just kind of investigating. 15:43 So a lot of people will do that and they'll come across eventually, not always, but eventually they may come cross an area that they weren't paying attention to. 15:50 But, you know, why is that area damp or why there's discoloration on the wall? 15:54 Well, let's look behind the fridge and, see a surprise over there and then that initiates a usually a frenzied Google search or some type of online investigation 16:04 which then has them look into the path of someone finding someone like myself like a functional medicine doctor. 16:10 So those are several of the cases I've seen probably more so are Where it's classically someone moving into an apartment, 16:19 student, someone earlier in the phase of life, that's more common. 16:22 That's what I'm seeing. 16:22 But of course it could happen at any phase. 16:25 And what's interesting to me is you think that water damage mold is usually more of like the college area houses or the more simpler homes. 16:33 I've had cases where we leave in higher end. 16:37 residential dwellings are also affected. 16:39 So it could be as simple as, you know, poor constructions at the beginning or maybe a design flaw that you never know what you catch with this. 16:47 It's an interesting thing. 16:48 I don't judge based on that, but that's based. 16:51 On I, don' look at particular areas to say this is a higher risk of mold, I'm looking more on symptoms. 16:56 But when the patients that have found a source, they usually come in with that type of investigation path. 17:04 Yeah, it's interesting that you said that, you know, there is some misconceptions. 17:09 The majority of our work is actually newer construction. 17:12 Everybody thinks, oh, we have these old moldy homes and older homes actually breathe. 17:16 And so they have more ventilation to them. 17:18 So most of my work has actually new construction, and we've done multi-million dollar model homes that have never been lived in and are extremely moldly. 17:29 It's not necessarily the age of the home. 17:31 Another misconception that we hear about quite a bit is people think, well, I don't have a problem because I'm a really good housekeeper. 17:40 My house is really clean. 17:41 I can have her problem. 17:42 And those two things are not necessary connected. 17:46 So it's how good a house keeper you are. 17:48 It is how much moisture that you have in your home, right? 17:51 You can be spotless and spick and span and still wind up having a major issue. 17:57 Yeah, there's some different, sometimes you have to kind of break through some of those stereotypes on what creates mold issues. 18:03 At the bottom, end of the day, it's going to be this moisture. 18:07 Molds need three things to thrive. 18:09 The complex carbon compound, oxygen, and moisture, the amount of moisture depends on the type of mold that it is, every house has all those things in it. 18:18 again, it kind of boils back to HVAC systems, oftentimes being one of the main culprits in the home. 18:24 But when you have folks that Okay, so they find you, they've gone to Dr. 18:29 Google, the research, etc. 18:31 Then they found you and you go back and have been your preliminary intake. 18:37 What we oftentimes hear is, is the folks kind just want this kind Of like, yes, no thumbs up, thumbs down test, right? 18:43 So Is this it? 18:46 One test, boom and be done. 18:47 And it's just oftentimes not that simple, right? 18:51 So, um, whether that's in the home or in person. 18:54 So how do you, once they found you and then what's kind of that pathway on the testing look like, what do typically recommend for your patients to help 19:04 get that, to make those data driven decisions? 19:07 So, you know, first thing, let's say we had identified that the suspicion there we do typically that our test to see if there's a micro environmentally 19:16 source microtoxins, because there'd be food sources. 19:18 That's it. 19:18 Separate question. 19:19 And then there are the environmental ones, which we're focusing on. 19:23 So we were seeing, micro toxins that are. 19:26 Indication of, like the way I describe it usually is, you know, You can match the bullet to the gun. 19:31 So if the bullets of the mold that we're detecting in the test, then we can backpatch to it comes from this type of gun, 19:37 and this other gun tends to hang out in, drywalls or homes versus corn feed or something like that. 19:44 That's kind of first direction we identify. 19:46 There's an environmental damp building signature. 19:51 Then from there, I usually, from my end, will recommend to say, please get some type of a mold-certified specter, someone who understands this. 19:59 Because the first thing I learned when I first started this was saying, get someone to fix it. 20:03 And that can sometimes mean cutting a drywall and slapping new dry wall paint, and that's it, that not at all what I was referring to. 20:10 It's more of source control, so getting to the root cause. 20:12 Just like we do root-cause medicine and functional medicine. 20:15 As far as root cause, as far on the structural side, where did it come from? 20:19 What's happening? 20:20 That requires someone that has a little bit of training obviously in your field of expertise. 20:24 So I encourage people to have that. 20:26 I have some suggestions that I would recommend, but I kind of let that to the patient to kind explore what they're comfortable with as for as contractors 20:34 and goes down that route. 20:35 And what I usually like to kinda piggyback that once that process has started, I call that phase of it as like the source control. 20:41 Identifying the sources is a part of that, Like the analogy from a medical point is if you're fighting a bad infection, like a sepsis or something, 20:49 you are in the hospital, or you sick, it's helpful to see where is it coming from. 20:52 Because maybe there's an abscess somewhere hiding that we need to clean out or drain to get to the source of it. 20:58 Similar analogy I like to think about when we're dealing with the mycotoxin environment. 21:02 To get the root cause, getting it fixed. 21:05 and then initiating or discussing plans for detoxification. 21:09 Now, if symptoms are severe and it's feasible, I would try to encourage people to kind of, you know, they can vacate the home or where they're getting 21:18 exposed if it is possible. 21:19 Some people's situations, it it not reasonable or amenable. 21:23 So how we kind of help people to mitigate the exposure is a start, but the overall first step is what I would call source control.
HVAC Systems, Humidity, and Indoor Air Quality 21:32 So get that situated on the environmental, the structural side. 21:36 And sometimes I won't even start a detox until that part's initiated because I'm concerned about initiating, you know, pushing gradients down a detoxification pathway. 21:46 yet then there's more coming on board from the environmental. 21:49 I don't want to cause, you know, physician do no harm. 21:51 Don't wanna cause the worsening of symptoms first. 21:54 So that's kind of usually what my kind overall framework is, how I guide patients to get the process started. 22:02 That again makes a lot of sense. 22:06 One of the things that we always hear, one of questions we get asked is, is the house safe for us to stay in? 22:12 And as an IEP, we cannot answer that question because really that's a health question. 22:18 So we also refer that back to the practitioner. 22:20 Everybody has different exposure levels, so on and so forth. 22:23 There's medical histories. 22:23 We have some. 22:28 other conditions, which may exacerbate, et cetera. 22:30 So our job as an assessor is to come in into a structure and really do several things. 22:37 Identify the what, the where, why, get into your point as to the root cause. 22:42 That's critically important. 22:44 And then the how is like, oh, so how do we resolve this issue? 22:47 And that again, once you understand what the route causes always starts with a moisture issue. 22:51 Find out what that is. 22:53 Then from a mold standpoint, we always call it moisture mold. 22:57 And then micro toxins come to the three M's, right? 22:59 So you can't resolve the mold issue until you get rid of the moisture issue. 23:03 And you. 23:04 Resolve the micro toxin issue, until I get really bold issue one kind of it gets the other. 23:08 So that's always the approach that we take is that three approach inside of a structure. 23:13 How do you answer that question? 23:16 When a customer says, or a client, a patient says hey, is it okay for me to be here? 23:20 How did you make that determination? 23:23 It's a tough one. 23:23 So, you know, I look at it and usually I graded by severity of symptoms and how's it affecting their quality of life. 23:30 If I'm seeing that, hey, we see a little spot, everyone's fine, have a bit of a sniffles. 23:35 I can manage with this. 23:36 And there's usually in that time I say, try to maybe isolate or see what you can do, maybe get out of that room. 23:43 Do some, some mitigation techniques. 23:46 So I'll usually we'll say on that side, if it's a more of a moderate direction, like having more severe symptoms, I would encourage people to take a, 23:52 maybe if they can't wrap their mind about say vacating the house yet. 23:56 Take a break, go stay with a friend. 23:58 Go kind of get some space from the housing and see kind observe what your symptoms are. 24:01 Maybe you can get away for a week and just do a little bit of tests or get a hotel if that's maybe not able to do that. 24:07 That's kind in that mid range of severity of symptoms. 24:10 I could think of one example there was, a bright young lady in a higher level education. 24:17 Straight A student gets into this apartment and her grades are dropping. 24:20 She's having brain fog, severe, to the point where she can't remember even some basic words. 24:25 I think the word was cup, which was telling me she was having word finding issues. 24:29 Then that's when Ashley would cross the line and they're actually talking to her mom and that was happening. 24:34 Something's off here, obviously. 24:37 So when they identify what's going on, in that situation, I'm like, no, this is not a negotiable. 24:41 You have to vacate and this one must go. 24:44 So kind of I go by a symptom gradient. 24:47 I also have the factor and I tell patients if it's cost prohibitive, understand I have factor real life issues. 24:54 Sometimes it is easy to, you're paying and you bought a home, we have a lease for a there's another element of getting out of a lease, 25:01 the legal kind of impairment upon having to pay that. 25:05 So that's a factor that patients have to, a real life factor. 25:09 I try to balance that as well, but if it's situation, there are some situations where it is a dire health concern that I will say, 25:15 listen, I really think regardless, you got to get out here, medical advice. 25:19 That's kind a general framework of how I would put it. 25:22 There could be some more detailed nuances, more patient specific, as an overall 30,000 foot view, that how would recommend. 25:31 I think there's a, uh, this is a great time to kind of dig into a little bit more about there are differences between modalities, 25:40 right? 25:40 So that histamine response that, that can come from just really any kind species of mold. 25:45 And then we have these chronic illnesses that could be associated with toxigenic or pathogenic molds. 25:50 Right? 25:51 There's different kinds of levels. 25:53 Is there not? 25:55 Correct. 25:56 There are different exposure levels and different responses. 25:58 Some of that's based off of genetics, some of those based of the toxins, how people detox. 26:03 You know, there's a lot of factors at play, but you kind of complicate the way it looks from the outside perspective in. 26:09 So that being said, different people may have different response, you might even have a situation where one person is able to function. 26:15 Let's say you're talking to someone working, a young parent, mom, father, they have their responsibilities at home, their responsibility at work, 26:23 are they able to complete those responsibilities? 26:26 There's an element of that. 26:27 The severity of the symptoms are impacting any of those, whether it's through a mast cell activation or direct mycotoxin or other processes, 26:35 immune suppression, whatever else is the underlying mechanism. 26:39 That gets very complicated very quickly. 26:41 And then there's also differences of opinion. 26:43 Some people have a little bit of people say this is a bit more or not more of this camp or in that camp. 26:47 So when I kind of see that situation where it's clinically not fully clear, I'll go based on other a more generic clinical reference point of how is it 26:55 impacting your life? 26:56 So if you're having major problems in life, that's where I stop negotiating. 26:59 It's time to, you know, to vacate to go. 27:03 It can be confusing to families that I always want to kind of emphasize that point. 27:05 Not everyone in the family will have necessarily the exact same response. 27:09 Yeah. 27:10 And that always creates a challenge. 27:12 Generally, not always, but generally it seems to be most frequently it's either the mother or the children that that may be exhibiting responses. 27:24 And it's the father, the male in the house is like, I got nothing. 27:29 So this is all in your head. 27:31 I'm fine. 27:32 But in same house, we hear that time and time again, and I am sure you do in practice as well. 27:37 Well, often they'll hear the fourth M, which is money. 27:43 They get concerned because they remediate that to do it properly is another M. 27:47 Yeah, that's true. 27:49 No doubt. 27:50 We've talked a little bit about HVACs and the role that they play. 27:54 And I think it really deserves kind of a deeper dive. 27:58 An HvAC system is essentially it's the lungs of the house, right? 28:03 So it stands for heating, ventilation and air conditioning. 28:07 When it is working properly, not only does it cool or heat your home, but it also pulls that moisture out of And therefore not giving these xerophilic 28:19 molds enough humidity or moisture to thrive. 28:23 But also it filters the air. 28:25 If you have a good, you know, the EPA recommends typically a MERV 13 and MERF 16 HVAC filter. 28:32 And they got to be changed, uh, frequently as, as recommended by the manufacturer, but that actually helps, improve your indoor air quality. 28:44 The project that we're on actually is very interesting. 28:48 It started out with underperforming HVAC system, just older units that were at the end of their mechanical life and just weren't doing its job. 28:57 And so the facilities management company went back and replaced all the HvAC systems, but the hvac contractor put in too large a system. 29:07 So the brand new systems. 29:08 And the relative humidity inside the structures were in 60, 70 percent range, which is more than enough to get mold growth. 29:16 And so we have now these molds everywhere blooming. 29:20 It was because the system was short cycling or over cooling so fast, it didn't actually pull the moisture out of the air. 29:27 So that's a common thing that can happen. 29:30 really important to make sure you maintain those HVAC systems really well and get the appropriate system that's in there. 29:35 Because it can be, the HFACS systems can't be your best friend to maintain that indoor air quality and pull the moisture out of the air. 29:44 But also that ductwork, if it's not working well, acts as a conduit to spread contaminants all throughout the structure. 29:51 If it was not pulling the moist around, it creates really just a perfect storm. 29:59 When patients report that, you know, with you, Hey, I feel better outside the home that I do inside the. 30:06 We hear that that frequently. 30:10 Do you actually encourage the HVAC system to get looked at first? 30:15 Is that one of the things that you do in your process? 30:17 Or do you just have them go out and find an inspector who's knowledgeable around the role of HBAC systems in the hall? 30:27 That's a good question. 30:28 So generally, by mentioning the mold inspector, they will always look at the... 30:33 Sometimes I get the reports and I got a copy of them. 30:35 They always have an assessment of the HVAC system, ducting, plenum, drainage, etc. 30:41 I've learned a lot more about Hvac from this patient actually than all the things you were saying earlier about HPAC. 30:49 It's a wonderful luxury to have here in the South, anywhere, but it's also very complicated science. 30:55 I mean, the core of it you're doing basically with thermodynamics. 30:59 Now, what was the average person going to be aware of when they're looking at HVAC?
DIY Sampling and Choosing the Right Assessment 31:04 What you nailed for sure, definitely like having the filters checked. 31:08 And I grew up in North, so our systems were more in something called a basement. 31:13 So there would be the drainage would go straight down. 31:15 There was a very short drainage line. 31:18 That pan and straight to the drain that's in the subfloor there. 31:22 Here, there's a track that water can come down if there is a problem in that attic. 31:25 So filtration change is definitely important. 31:28 I think I would encourage patients to have that on a regular schedule. 31:30 And that gets people up there to look. 31:32 Also, look and have an eyeball and inspect. 31:34 Is there anything weird, anything, you know, what water spots pooling? 31:38 That's important also to looking into. 31:40 Put that into kind of some of the discussion I hate this is an important component of avoiding this remains the most folks that will be very well aware 31:47 of that I think this general guidance people should be take their investigation more closely now. 31:53 I wouldn't expect the average patient to be like what you were talking about, matching the BTU requirement of the HVAC unit to the square footage. 32:00 There's a lot of science, a lotta engineering that goes in. 32:02 And kinda the take-home message I'm realizing, because several of my patients that you mentioned, like the new construction problem, 32:08 have come in with new constructions properties and they're having mold or humidity problems, and it has precisely to do with the fact that what just said 32:16 in more of a technical terms, the units are not matched for the size. 32:22 I don't know why that's happening. 32:25 I have been noticing that a little bit more frequently, especially with the new constructions. 32:31 So that all being said is I do not expect people to get an HVAC certification, but to take that unit upstairs in consideration and at least put your eyes 32:40 on it every four to six months whenever the frequency is for your filtration changes. 32:45 And then as part of what I am doing, I mean, directing patients to go towards like mold-informed remediation companies, that's part of their investigation. 32:55 So I do expect that to be assessed. 33:00 That HVAC system, there's a couple of mold points to add to that just to kind of pile on. 33:06 If you're doing PCR, polymer chain reaction sampling, There's some pros and cons of that. 33:14 So if we want to understand, hey, do we have toxigenic fungal species? 33:17 You have to get down to PCR to go down at the species level on your identification for your testing. 33:23 That HVAC filter is a great place to test. 33:27 that home because it does a couple of things. 33:29 One of the downsides of PCR testing is that you can get what's known as sampling bias by sampling a spot that's relatively clean, 33:38 like maybe a desktop, and that kind of not get you anything because Or the other side of that coin is sampling somewhere that never gets dusted. 33:48 And so then it becomes more of a core sample. 33:50 You're actually pulling fungal contaminants that may have been there for years, right? 33:54 And it's not really indicative of what's going on inside the home. 33:57 So if your patients sample from the HVAC filter, generally that gives them a look back. 34:02 One is filters typically a 90 day filter. 34:04 It's a better indication of recency of, what going inside this structure and two, Inhalation risk, so it's not what's settled. 34:12 It's what they're breathing in and so you can use that HVAC filters a great place for that big fan of smart thermostats as well. 34:22 And so here in the South, let's make that system work for us. 34:26 Generally, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, I use it in my own home is that if you have a smart thermal set, 34:32 you can generally have the setting for your humidity that will overheat or over cool whenever the moisture in air becomes above say 45% or 48%, whatever 34:41 you want to set it at. 34:43 That way you're using that, that's system, the lungs of your house to actually, um, overheating over cool to pull that humidity down. 34:50 So it's really just an integral part of the hall, but certainly an inspection needs to get looked at. 34:58 and evaluated properly. 35:01 Setup always encourages folks to put little high grammars throughout the house to see where the humidity is and if the HVAC is, 35:10 one, if your thermostat is calibrated correctly so you have good data, but also make sure you don't have little spots where you've got elevations of moisture 35:20 throughout your home. 35:24 Is there a point where, when someone comes to you, and we've touched on this a little bit, you see a bit of old and they kind of freak out. 35:30 So either in the windows, it could be some cladosporium, or it can be spotting on HVAC vents, maybe in a bathroom, the shower grout lines, 35:40 generally that's clodosporum as well, people call it mildew. 35:43 Is your point, where you say, listen, I think this is beyond, You need to get a professional inspector to go out there and take a look and sample, 35:51 Or do you have your patients do DIY sampling? 35:54 A lot of patients are interested in the DIY sampling. 35:56 I think that's something that patients have interest for. 35:59 They usually want to start with something of a simple home kit to validate their concerns or fears before they reach out for more of robust assessment. 36:08 So I they love that as a gateway to assess my concern about something. 36:13 It's valid, it's more a mildew kind of concern. 36:15 And I can be a little bit less cautious about it. 36:18 The DIY kits are very popular. 36:23 And I love that suggestion you had about checking for the filter in HVAC. 36:28 It's a great idea. 36:29 I think it's something that a lot of patients could do themselves to be confident to do. 36:33 So typically, most of the time when they come in to me, they already have had done some type of DIY, some kind of investigation. 36:41 Yeah. 36:43 And we're actually working on a program to where someone can perform DIY sampling. 36:49 in comprehensive DIY sampling to understand not just if we have mold like the auger plates that you get at Home Depot or something like that, 36:58 which really aren't a great assessment tool, to be real candid. 37:02 We've had podcasts that talk about that. 37:04 But something that will say, okay, hey, do I have some of these toxigenic or pathogenic species that can create these chronic illness concerns that I have, 37:13 or just because, and you, I'm sure you know this, that just, because we have toxicity mold species, doesn't mean they're actually producing those toxins. 37:21 And so this test will actually say, okay, do we, have stachybotrys short term? 37:26 And then if so, is it actually, producing trichophacines? 37:28 Or do, we has aspergillus fumigatus? 37:31 Is it producing, aflatoxins or what have you? 37:35 I think empowering people. 37:38 to have that control and as a good entry staff. 37:42 And then once they say, Hey, this is the contaminants that I have. 37:45 Now we still got to go back to, okay, so why do you have them and how to get rid of them? 37:49 That's where that inspection that will make sense. 37:51 So I think that's, that important. 37:54 Money doesn't grow on trees. 37:56 and, and so, you know, being able to pick and choose the right testing and being, um, Physically smart, certainly makes a lot of sense.
Recovery Timeline and Detox Considerations 38:06 Is there a particular test that you've historically recommended that your patients take or DIY testing that they frequently bring to you? 38:16 No, there's not a particular one I could come to mind. 38:17 There's many very ones that various ones on the market. 38:20 I haven't seen as far as a tickler trends. 38:22 They have always seen this brand win versus the other. 38:24 And I don't think there is much of a guidance from the depression that I get from patients that just kind of really up to themselves to find one. 38:30 So if there was one that's developed by someone, you know, the knowledge build knows, I think that'd be great. 38:36 It might even turn out to be a wonderful, you know, welcome home, welcoming gift when you're getting your first new home here. 38:41 I got you a mold test kit for your new phone. 38:44 That might be actually a good suggestion for that. 38:47 But yeah, I think in general, it's a kind of a wild, wild west for the DIY kits. 38:50 So I don't have a particular one that I'm seeing from patients or one I've myself had a particularly stock and say I recommend this one particularly. 38:56 And that would be kind interesting. 38:58 A great starting point for patients who initiate the, you know, the ravaged Google search, what's going on, I got mold. 39:05 I think that's a good first step for kind of organizing and structuring people's whole pathways. 39:10 Let's check the source, my home, let's find someone who's kind understands the health concerns of it, so like a holistically minded, 39:17 functionally minded clinician, and then starting that process from there. 39:21 Having those two points together would be a great foundation. 39:25 for patients to start kind of an investigation at home because they always ask, right, I have this concern, now what can I do? 39:30 Obviously finding a mold kind-of informed remediation company is a great first start. 39:36 Not everyone understands that, but yes, it's a first great start and then the other side is, you know, both of us are kind unique to find from the typical 39:43 person who's just living their life and all of a sudden they see a spot and maybe their kids are sick. 39:47 You know for them to go from that point to finding the right people is that's kind of the the hope and the thought that I have is I think there's a lot 39:53 of room work to be done in that space to get people in the Right direction and that test kit that you're describing I would be a wonderful part of that 40:02 first step Yeah. 40:05 We, you know, I, we started the mold pros with the understanding that typically the inspection or restoration industry, in my opinion, 40:14 does not do a very good job, uh, for, or doesn't serve people. 40:17 Well, they have environmental illness because the, much of the industry has always been focused on returning the building back to kind of this pre-loss condition, 40:27 right? 40:27 So making sure that, as you mentioned earlier, Hey, it's, It's painted over. 40:30 It looks good. 40:32 and they really missed the boats on some of these advanced testings for contaminants that may not be readily apparent, right? 40:43 Or they're not really taking into consideration the health of the occupants. 40:46 It's about getting the home looking pretty again, which on the grand scheme of things is, you know, not that big a deal. 40:54 I mean, everyone's a nice looking home, but it's really the help of occupant. 40:57 So that's the reason why we started the company. 40:59 And that kind of our passion. 41:00 We go that, that extra, extra mile to understand the heath related conditions. 41:06 So when someone's gone down this path, they've done the inspection, the remediation, and they're on a protocol to go down that path. 41:17 The first thing is, as you mentioned earlier, you have to get rid of the exposure. 41:21 You've got to make sure that you're not going back and getting re-exposed every time. 41:25 As great as your achievement modalities may be, if that's the case, then the road to wellness is going to be a tough one. 41:30 So on our side, when we do a remediation project, we're going to look to that, you know, same thing. 41:36 We're gonna make data-driven decisions. 41:37 So we'll have everyone, I'll encourage everyone to have the home retested, making sure it's at a normal fungal ecology. 41:45 The moisture issues have been resolved. 41:48 Then your treatment modalities can start to really take hold. 41:54 There's an expectation sometimes with patients that, okay, have a house treated on Tuesday. 41:58 We're good. 41:59 But we got the data that shows it's fine. 42:01 On Friday, I should be feeling better. 42:03 That's, we see that and hear that frequently. 42:05 And that's not the case, is it? 42:09 No, no, I mean you could have typical ranges. 42:11 So I've had patients, you know, feel better to turn around maybe enough first like one to two months. 42:15 I had some patients that go up to maybe five, six months, so in ranges, it varies a lot. 42:21 A lot of that has to do with kind of how one is your body detoxifies aggressively and do a detoxification. 42:26 The other one, is kind what you were alluding to, for the people that can leave their home or they have a lot of surface area that holds on to like fabrics, 42:36 clothing, carpet, upholstery. 42:39 These type of things can also act as a secondary reservoir where things are kind of re-inoculated to have you vacuuming or you're trying to do some There's 42:47 some version of cleaning up, it could be problematic and it can slow down the rate of the detox. 42:52 I remember one case I think was the one on the higher end for the Detox level and we were serially tracking detox burden level. 43:00 It was very slowly, coming down, but it was slower than most. 43:04 And what we ended up finding out was that, you know, the bulk of the water exposure was in the master bath. 43:10 His master closet was right adjacent to that. 43:13 And he was very attached to the clothing he had. 43:16 He didn't want to, it was sentimental value. 43:18 A lot of, he liked his clothes and there's quite a bit in there. 43:21 But we, surmised that that was acting a bit like a reservoir because despite the extensive remediation when he didn't do the whole thing with the clothes, 43:29 he even couldn't get rid of them. 43:32 And that I totally saw was a very slower detox. 43:36 Do I directly measure the codes myself? 43:38 No, but based on the location and what he was describing, it was my suspicion. 43:43 So Having that detoxification path is multifaceted and there are multiple aspects in all living environments and kind of surfaces are the same. 43:53 Some people have more like less carpet, more carpet at Harvard, et cetera. 43:56 Uh, some people are more willing to get rid of their clothes, change their furniture. 43:59 So those are all considerations and it varies. 44:03 Again, obviously cost is a factor for that. 44:05 And I respect when people say, look, I built this wardrobe up over time. 44:09 I can't, you know, need this for work or school or whatnot. 44:12 I hear them and I try to offer like, well, there's some other options you could do, maybe look into some type of surfactants or whatnot that could help. 44:19 But all of that put together just to highlight to the patient that it's a complicated process. 44:24 Not always I get the house fixed. 44:26 I take a couple of these supplements and then I'm better in five minutes. 44:30 It can be a process? 44:32 Yeah, no doubt. 44:34 As we wrap up, I think this has been hopefully really helpful for a lot of folks. 44:39 What do you think people misunderstand most about mold and health? 44:44 I think the biggest kind of. 44:47 confusion, it really hits a lot of people. 44:49 It's like, why doesn't everyone equally get affected by it? 44:51 So, you know, if you were to think about like I got the flu, mentally, everyone kind of gets a visual of what that feels like. 44:57 I know that the look is, the feel is how long it takes.
Key Takeaways, Telehealth, and Contact Information 45:00 it's predictable. 45:02 Maybe not everyone gets it, but if do get it you kind know everyone has a concept of flu. 45:07 A similar analogy doesn�t necessarily exist with a mold illness because the symptom presentations varied you know, who it affects is varied. 45:16 Not everyone's bodies handle it the same. 45:17 So it becomes a little bit more of a complicated process to deal with. 45:22 That's part of the confusion. 45:24 If I could take a take home message to the patients at large, if the audience of we're watching this, hey, look, just because the presentation in the family 45:32 is different, doesn't mean it's that person's just imagining it or is anxiety. 45:36 It certainly can present differently. 45:38 Something that's valid, it is confusing. 45:40 Sure, clinically it will be more confusing, But for mold, if you're identifying those kind of drivers, there's the immunity, 45:47 the water damage, something's wrong with your health, you move into a location you don't feel right, that should initiate a process that, 45:54 should in your mind maybe have mold as far as what we would call a differential, but for the average person to think, could this be mold? 46:00 At least ask that question. 46:02 And the fact that it's not a clear-cut picture makes it a little bit harder, totally appreciated. 46:07 But to have a tool in your toolkit to get to your root cause of what's causing me to having a disturbance in my normal health since my change, 46:17 my mood, by water, something that may have happened. 46:20 So that's kind of the main misconceptions. 46:22 Not all symptoms are the same, not all presentations are same. 46:25 And that, yes, makes a challenge, but it should also allow patients to realize it is a bit hard to cross out. 46:32 That question should be addressed. 46:36 Very good. 46:39 Do you, on your practice, and I know you're here in the greater Houston area, is your practices primarily necessary? 46:46 Do telehealth as well? 46:48 Yeah, we incorporate telehealth. 46:50 We use a HIPAA certified platform for video linking if we need to, or phone if people are more inclined for phone. 46:57 So that's an option to take, especially because, you know, Texas is a large state. 47:00 so we're okay with comfortable telemedicine. 47:02 we also welcome patients that come into the North Houston area, specifically Shenandoah, just off of 45, so very easy to get to for our Houston population 47:12 as well. 47:14 If someone wants to learn more about your practice and your approach, your data-driven approach to health, how can they best reach you? 47:25 So we have our main websites, internalhealingandwellnessmd.com. 47:30 We can reach us also through our website, through a form submission, a phone call. 47:34 You're welcome to call us at any time. 47:36 If you have answering services between the day and even nighttime, we help with the AI agents, the new addition. 47:42 So anytime you wish to call, even if it's at an odd hour of the night, you're welcome to give us a call and we'll be happy to help you out with getting 47:49 an appointment. 47:51 That's fantastic. 47:52 Dr. 47:52 Khan, thanks for joining me and helping us look at the person and the place with the care that each deserve. 47:58 Here's what I hope listeners take away from our conversation today is that symptoms deserve a careful medical evaluation. 48:05 A water leak, persistent odor or visible suspected growth deserves a carefully building investigation. 48:15 For someone to be on the road to wellness, it really takes kind of this collaborative approach between a good environmental firm and a Good practitioner 48:27 that is familiar with environmental illness. 48:29 And if they share this information, they shared the data, et cetera, I think that really helps folks get on the road to wellness and provides the best 48:39 result as quickly as possible. 48:41 You know, what we're really passionate about is doing these complete moisture and environmental investigations, providing really clear quantitative data 48:51 to the patient and to practitioner. 48:56 and using eco-friendly solutions to actually address contaminants in a way without putting more toxins to resolve toxic situations. 49:05 So if anyone needs to contact the Mold Pros, you can reach us at themoldpros.com, T-H-E-M-O-L-D-B-R-S.COM, or email us info at themoldpos. 49:19 com. 49:21 If this conversation has provided any help to you, or if you know someone who maybe would benefit from listening to it, to the conversation or has some 49:32 health concerns, please forward it over. 49:34 Forward the episode, the link. 49:35 We surely appreciate that. 49:38 Until next time, I'm John Bodie. 49:39 I am your host and take care of your health and your home. 49:46 You've been listening to mold, mycotoxins and more with John Bodie. 49:49 If you're ready to take the next step towards a healthier home, follow the show and visit TheMoldPros.com for your free consultation. 49:57 Because clean air is the first step to true healing.
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