Autoimmune Therapies – Low Dose Naltrexone

Jill Carnahan, MD

Thank you. Dr. Kelly, so excited to be here with you today.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Yes. And I don’t even know where to start on your background and how much you’ve given back. But I do right away want to show the audience the book that you wrote. And we’re going to talk a little bit about this. The topic today is going to be mostly on low dose Naltrexone, LDN, but really this book for anyone with chronic illness, your loved ones with chronic illness, not just thyroid health at all. You know, Dr. Jill went through chronic illness just like myself, the mold and all the infectious infections. And so we not only understand the process because we’re both medical doctors, but we have been the patient. We have been in there. So this book, Unexpected Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science and Faith is absolutely beautiful. So please tell us about yourself, Dr. Jill.

Jill Carnahan, MD

Sure, thank you for having me. So I practice functional medicine in Boulder, Colorado, but I grew up on a farm in Illinois and one of five kids, and I had my own journey through medical school with breast cancer. And then shortly after Crohn’s disease. So I really very quickly had the School of Life education on how to deal with chronic, complex illness that was life threatening. And I always say I learned so much through that, probably more than any textbook in medicine. And again, like we both share those journeys, but I come as granted, I have the medical education, but my real heart is empowering patients to heal themselves and to trust their bodies in wisdom that it wants to heal if we give it the right inputs.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Absolutely. And I really do believe that, you know, we could go into pejoratives about clinical medicine, allopathic medicine, rather. But to just kind of sum it up, I felt that a lot of the empowerment and the healing was taken away from the patient and their control. And a lot of it is under our control in and I like this, this approach and that giving power back to the patient education that their body, you know, they’re really they know their body best and that we can do a better job partnering with them. And a lot of the stories that you have in your book, too, are really touching and how you do that. You know, I think the first question, because we’re going to be talking about LDN, low dose Naltrexone is to describe what is this drug?

Jill Carnahan, MD

Yeah. Yeah. So Naltrexone has been available for decades and naltrexone is an opioid blocker. So years and years ago it was used for heroin addicts and opiate addicts because it was like any of it, like disulfiram for alcoholics. It blocks the receptors from killing that effective opioids. And so what it would do in an addict is they couldn’t get high and so they would avoid, you know, using that drug. But what happened in the 1980s, a very wise doctor started trying. I don’t know why he first originally thought of trying it, but he used it in some HIV patients, and he started to see some remarkable changes in their immune system. He thought, What in the world is going on? And we now know that low dose naltrexone. So the typical prescription dose is 50 milligrams or more, and low dose usually is anywhere from 1 to 4.5 milligrams or somewhere in that very low, like a 10th of the regular dose. And what we know is it blocks our natural opioid receptors because we all produce endogenous opioids. It makes us like the runner’s high that you might feel or that joy you might feel when you see, you know, at a friend’s wedding or you see your child graduating from high school. This real joy that we have, we have the ability to make endorphins. 

And it’s one of those things that and can also get us into flow states. I’m a super big fan of Flow. So if you’re a surfer or a skier or you’re a musician, you can get to that state where it’s timeless, it’s effortless. That part of that is endorphins. So we want to produce endorphins in our body. And what low dose naltrexone does is it blocks your own production. Usually 2 to 4 a.m. is the prime time and then your body gets a signal, wait, there’s not enough opiates here, and it actually causes your body to produce more endorphins and opioids. And so that naturally helps you feel better, less pain. It’s like a natural pain relief. But even more than that is what they found is this endorphin cascade. Also down regulates cytokines which are inflammatory molecules that cause pain and inflammation autoimmunity. So we’re now using this in low doses to stimulate your own body, to produce endorphins. And it can be used for autoimmunity, it can be used for cancer, it can be used for Crohn’s and colitis, ovarian cancer and many, many issues that patients find low endorphin cases or increased cytokines.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Okay, great. Yeah, I think that it’s been a life, a game changer, a lifesaver for me personally. I started using it about I think it’s about four years ago now and even the doctor who prescribed it was a friend and he’s like, I don’t know, Kelly. Like, you know, I’m not quite sure. But by that point we had really gone after root causes. I think that’s important to really go after those cellular stresses and not continue to have a bad diet, bad lifestyle, that epigenetic stress, and then think that this is a cure all. I think that’s important for people to understand that this is part of the work that we’re doing in trying to get the person well in. This can just be a real jumpstart or can be that point where you add it in at appropriate times. Can you talk about that? Can you talk about the cadence of when you, you know, someone’s ready or can you just start it right away and start working on foundational health?

Jill Carnahan, MD

Yeah. So I do typically do so basically like say we’re dealing with thyroid or autoimmunity or any of these things that are in the realm that it could be helpful. You first want to do diet and make sure that the diet is clean, read and processed diet. Many people with autoimmunity do better off gluten and off some of the common allergens. So sometimes I’ll do like a paleo grain free diet or at least a gluten free diet. Often dairy and sugar are components of inflammation as well. So there’s all kinds of ways to kind of do that. But diet’s huge. And then so with autoimmunity, we have genetic inputs, we can’t change that, but with environmental insults. So decreasing exposure to toxic chemicals and improving your diet. So and clean air. Clean water, clean foods, some of these clean inputs and then the gut immune interface. So how you would look at that is you’d want to look at is there permeability, which there almost always is in autoimmunity, do you need to change the diet? Do you need to heal the gut? You need to get rid of dysbiosis in the gut. So we’re dealing with the gut immune interface. We’re dealing with environmental insults. We can’t really change genetics, but those are foundation for healing from autoimmunity. And then Leon’s a bonus. It can be really powerful, but LV end by itself will probably not reverse all the inflammation.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Right? Exactly. And that’s that’s just important for people to keep in mind it’s not a one trick pony, but it really does it like Dr. Jill said, it’s acting at that molecular level. And so I follow Dr. Paul Anderson. And he recently tweeted that it’s a glial modulator and that it’s binding to the toll like receptors can you kind of go into when it’s binding to that toll like receptor, the downstream effects again cytokines but anything specifically.

Jill Carnahan, MD

Yeah. So they can it does bind and so typically we give this at bedtime. The downside is opioids make you sleepy, happy, tired. And so if you block the abuse at bedtime and you already have a sleep disorder or severe insomnia, it can make that worse and usually it’s temporary. So what I’ll typically do is prescribe like a 3.0 milligram and give people a half the 1.5, work up to three, work up to 4.5, which is kind of the dose that’s been mostly studied. Although again, you can have anywhere from 1 to 5 milligrams and still be effective all in that low range. But as someone who has trouble sleeping, they can try the low dose or they can take it earlier in the day. But the reason we do it at bedtime is because our natural endorphin production 2 to 4 a.m. is kind of the height. So we’re trying to catch that natural endorphin cycle and block it. But what it does is that it binds to receptor sites on the opioids. It binds to toll like receptors which talk receptors are like the gatekeepers of inflammation in immune system. I get a whole lecture on that. It gets really complicated, but for the layperson, what they are is they’re just kind of like on off switches. Like at a train station. 

You get the train tracks going, the train goes through this track and you open the gate to like. Receptors are the gateways into different immune cytokines and inflammation. So if those are on and causing inflammatory status, you can actually block those or change those expression. And again, those are kind of gateways into a bunch of cytokine production cytokines. We all kind of learned in COVID, but in the pandemic, basically those are inflammatory molecules that are supposed to help you fight infections and do good things, but usually with mold related illness, with autoimmunity and with pandemic issues, a lot of times the cytokines get turned on and then they are in excess and they create tissue damage and inflammation and autoimmunity and all kinds of bad things. If they’re too excessive, this would be like Tenev Alpha and IO two and IL six and all these ones we know. And in fact, a lot of the big blockbuster drugs are specific blockers of a certain cytokine. So all that to say, we can actually downregulate that production in general with LDN upregulates endorphins. 

So even though it’s blocking our own endorphin production temporarily, it actually increases in the long term endorphin production, which is our feel good chemical. It’s the runner’s high. It’s what we all want to feel naturally. I always joke I must naturally have pretty good endorphin production because I’ve never really done drugs and I don’t see the point because like it just life, just like people, just like loving what I do that gets me high, all natural. And that’s like our natural endorphin production and we can actually whole nother topic, but like by creating flow in our life, that’s one way to increase endorphins naturally. So is LDN. This inhibits certain immune cells, so certain cytokines and immune cells that are like macrophages that are overreactive and cause tissue damage. This can kind of dampen their response. And in general, what we see is better mood, decreased inflammation, decreased pain and decreased risk of autoimmunity.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Do you have any favorite ways to increase flow?

Jill Carnahan, MD

Oh, I do a lot of flow. And so basically what you want to do with flow is do something a little bit novel, a little bit new, something you love to do. And for me, like, I ride my motorcycle, I climb rocks, I love to ski, but I also love to just be in nature, like, just be in nature, maybe with some music or without any headphones at all or reading. I love to write and create. I love to color. So these are all things for me. I see a lot of musicians. I’m not very musically inclined, but musicians can get into flow when they’re just all of a sudden, 4 hours later, they’ve been playing the guitar or jazz musicians. And so it doesn’t have to be a sport if you’re not very athletic, you can do it in other ways. But this actually was discovered first with like pro athletes when they would do these huge waves and things. And what happens in flow states is it’s that you lose your sense of time, you lose your sense of where you’re at, and you have this sense of oneness with the environment or whatever you’re doing. 

You usually have a lot of joy and excitement and usually a lot of creativity. So whether you’re writing or surfing or any of these things and you bypass your logical like say you’re a surfer and you’re surfing these big waves, you’re not thinking, Oh, I have to do this next. Your body just automatically goes into doing exactly the things that you need to do. And it’s almost like this intuitive sense of movement and intuitive sense of whatever you’re doing. And it’s a powerful place. I love to be there. You can also have social flow, which is like when you have a group of people doing something in common. And I feel like I have this with my patients in the office because I’m just like totally present with them listening to their story, you know, asking them questions. I’m sure you understand that too. To me, that’s also flow because I lose most of the time I’m just totally with them. And present.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Is that’s synonymous with the alpha state brainwave state.

Jill Carnahan, MD

So what you say about flow is you are the state of optimal, like dopamine, norepinephrine and then divides and opioids. So it’s like optimal neurotransmitters. And I suppose you could also be that way in other things. I think it very much crosses over into other avenues.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

I know there was some studies on fighter pilots and they were studying when they get into the zone and they have to be completely, absolutely in the present moment. Their lives are on the line and that is kind of like surfing and some other things and rock climbing. But they notice that their brains are in that alpha wave type state. But I really love the brain tap for that too. I just think that’s an amazing tool. I use that early on and it really helped me calm down and underneath understand even what it was like to be in that flow, say, because my body forgot I was in some very high sympathetic going, going, going, you know, type A personality, actually. Now, Dr. Jill taught me that we both share that we are a Type C personality and we’ll get into that. But I was able to really teach my body, kind of reteach my body, and that’s very important in healing that we do take the time, as would especially when we’re sympathetically driven that flight or fight is state that healing is in that parasympathetic. So getting into that that state and again you don’t have to go to Himalayas and meditate. You can do something fun and you can do it with people. Some people, like you said, you can get into a flow state with people that absolutely with this pandemic, we now know critically how important it is to have that community. And so if you can get that two for one, I guess, of getting in the flow and being with people, that’s a winner. So I did mention the type C personality. Will you go into that for us? Because I would bet Dr. Jill, some of the people listening might be there to see personality.

Jill Carnahan, MD

Yeah. So we have the type like driven and all this stuff and then type B is more like chill, relax. But this type C is like really not I’m not good at asking for help or not good at really owning, you know, what they need. And you tend to be a people pleaser. And there’s been studies that show that this is actually associated with cancers like breast cancer and melanoma and other things. And I realized as we started to read about this, oh gosh, that was part of my history because I got cancer at 25 and especially Vermont actually talks about breast cancer specifically because it’s this nurturing organ, right? How we bring life into the world and nurture a baby. And this metaphorical piece of breast cancer is we’re nurturing everybody else but ourselves. And I know you and I talked briefly before the medical education is brutal. And it helped us get to where we are. 

And there’s wonderful things about it, but it’s still very driven, masculine, achievement oriented and really, I mean, we’re taught in surgery and some of these things like suppress your need for water or using the restroom or sleeping, right? Like you’re taught to suppress your body’s need for normal physiological things and get on with it and show up and don’t complain. And I’m sure like you for me in medical school, you did not you went to work and you did not not show up unless you were in the ICU or dead like there was no room for being sick. Right. And so we have to kind of unlearn that because that’s not being kind ourselves. And if we want to practice and model behavior for our patients, it starts healing, starts with listening to our body and taking care of ourselves and being kind and that emotional, intuitive, sweet kind of part of our self that’s much more feminine in nature. We all have masculine feminine because it’s not male or female. It’s parts of ourselves. But nurturing that more creative and soft and intuitive sense is actually so powerful in helping people heal. And it’s just as important as the analytical mind.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Absolutely. And you do talk about that in your book. You talk about the intuition, and I know that was beat out of me and not being valid. You know, when you actually felt when you connected with your patient and you had intuition. And Neil Nathan does a great job of explaining intuitive healing. So, so do you. But I remember it was just like you were taught to be a robot and you were taught to, again, you know, by by going through the training. And like you said, there’s no room for your needs. There’s no there’s no room you need to do this. And we wonder why the physician suicide rates are so high. They are staggeringly high. They have nowhere to go. They have no one to turn to. And they’re the ones who are supposed to be on the front lines. And so I really love what you’re doing. I think physicians of all kinds should read your book. I told you I was making my husband read your book because he’s an anesthesiologist for the Mayo and they just go, go, go. And it just it’s very hard on a person. And again, it’s really sad the state of medicine right now and how doctors are treated and especially when you are an intuitive person, an HSP. Now I know you and I share that as well. And so it was more even more ego this tonic to me to go through that training and lose that part of myself. I really do think that led to my demise of my, you know, part of why I was diagnosed with chronic illness and part of why I was able to heal is addressing everything, you know, really looking at the holism of what was going on in my body and in my spirit. And again, your book details beautifully, your healing journey. I’d like to ask you because I listen to you on the better health guys. Scott, for us, going to a great friend of both of ours and you talked about daily methods of detoxification. I think that is genius. When we think about detox, we we think, oh, we’re going to do a detox for 30 days and we’re in the people who are being marketed to are not healthy enough to do. What you also said in a different podcast. Delusion is a solution for pollution. And that’s why you’re you’re you may be gaining weight and not be able to get off. So get the pounds off. And so the last thing you want to do is stress your body out when you’re not metabolically ready. So dove into that. Dr. Jill you’ve got it.

Jill Carnahan, MD

I love it. And thank you for bringing that up. So first of all, daily detox. So like you said so often on, you know, your on your social media or this and I was like, oh, do this shake for 30 days or do this protocol for 30 days. And it’s like it sounds too good to be true, right? It is, because our bodies don’t work on it. January 1st comes and we do detox once a year and then the rest of the year we eat crap and we don’t take care of ourselves. We’re not sleeping. We’re struggling. Strategy.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Not a. Go.

Jill Carnahan, MD

No, no, no. But what I want to do is make it very doable because otherwise it gets overwhelming, right? So but what you want to do is pick things that fit into your life that you can do as habits you want to create habits that are healthy. And I always say start very simple clean air, clean water, clean food, because all of us have access that we don’t need a, you know, expensive doctor or expensive protocol or expensive supplements. Clean air is the air that we breathe. 80% of the environmental toxic load comes from the air that we breathe. So you want to make sure, at least in your bedroom, you have a good air filtration system or standalone filter with both HEPA filtration, which is the particulate and A B or C volatile organic compounds filter. Usually that’s like a clay or charcoal or zeolite in the filter to filter out formaldehyde and fumes and smoke and mold, mycotoxins, etc.. Those are those 2.5 microns and less particulate that are like the size of viruses but can be really critical to your health. So clean air, clean water, drinking clean water, not out of plastic water bottles, either reverse osmosis or filtered water. You can use a fridge. You don’t need to do a use a fridge filter like a standalone. I’m not a big fan of normal fridge filters. I don’t think they do a great job. So I have a picture in my fridge or I have a standalone on the counter or you can use reverse osmosis. But all these things are critical nowadays because our water supplies are becoming more and more contaminated. I just found out last year in Colorado all of the water tested, all the water supplies tested, every one of them was contaminated with pebbles, which is like Teflon Gore-Tex. These are forever chemicals and they can’t even calculate the half life. They’re in our water supply now forever. 

So you need to be drinking filter water or spring water or some clean source of water and then clean food. And these basic inputs are so critical. And then you set the daily habit. So I happened to do an absence of Bath every night. That’s one option you can do dry brushing before your shower. You can do a castor oil pack once a week on your liver gallbladder. You could do a coffee enema, which can be sounds crazy, especially for those of us in telepathic medicine. But what it does is it triggers the liver and gallbladder to release bile and kind of help your detox pathways through that bile acid release. You can take binders several times per week or every day that be clay or charcoal. You can take a gluten found or precursor of gluten down. And like I said, clean air, clean water, clean food can be your foundation. And just making those healthy choices to eat clean and to drink clean water and to breathe clean air is half the battle. If your inputs are clean, you’re going to have outputs that are clean. And you mentioned something super important. If you’re having trouble losing weight, I hear more and more people, they’re doing the right thing. 

They’re eating the right food. They’re exercising. It’s not about calories in or in, calories out. It’s about inflammation. And if your body’s inflamed and you’re toxic, as you mentioned, because dilution is the solution to pollution. So whether it’s our air quality, we open up windows, dilute any toxic things in our air, in our home, or whether our bodies are trying to protect us. And here’s where you can be kind yourself like, why am I gaining weight? I hate my belly, I hate my thighs. I’m so frustrated. And we have this like we don’t like ourselves, right? But part of the healing is being kind ourselves and loving ourselves just where we are, who we are, but then also giving the resources to our body to get rid of that extra fat, which is just a delusional effect for toxicity. So if you’re toxic and you try to lose weight, you won’t do so well because that toxicity wants to hold on to the extra fat because it protects it by diluting it. So you really want to think about basic detox first, and especially if you’ve been exposed to mold, that’s a big one that can trigger weight gain. And then as you get detox, you’ll be able to lose weight a lot easier. That’s your goal.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Do you ever use in your practice as a visual contrast test?

Jill Carnahan, MD

I do so by says you can do it online. We actually do it in person in our office. And what it does is it checks retinal visual acuity, four lines like dark and white lines. So it’s contrast. And what it does is it checks basically it’s a way to check blood flow to some of the smallest vessels in your body, which is the blood flow to your retina, and often a toxic chemical like mold or mycotoxins will affect the vascular system. And this is one where we can actually test to see if that vascular system is compromised to the retina. In our contrast is on and I’ve seen it literally be completely a fail and then someone does detox and binders and things and they they pass. So I know it really, really works and that’s one of the ways I did. I test to see if people still need binders and detox and where they’re out in the path. And one of the big things, obviously mold, mycotoxins affects affects us. But this was studied in World War Two for armed forces if they were exposed to bio toxins and chemical related warfare. So it really applies to any chemical toxic exposure.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Yeah, I think that’s a great cheap test because fortunately, unfortunately, we have a lot of expensive ones. So I think that that test is pretty cheap and I believe it’s just test outcome or you can find it on surviving mold. I know that it’s there. So just wanted to get your take on that and then to really wrap it up. You talk about reversible autoimmunity. And I want to say that this is one of the messages that I wanted to have come across very clearly with this. This topic of doctor talks thyroid series is that autoimmunity is not a death sentence and that what you just said, Dr. Jill, about loving your body, your even if your body’s keeping on weight, it’s trying to protect you. Your body is innately and divinely designed and that we have to kind of take a step back and not look at ourselves as broken, but look at that. So danger response in that we have cellular stress and the body is acting appropriately. And so that brings me to that reversible aspect of autoimmunity. When I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s, I was given a prescription for Synthroid and told to come back and get my lab strong and that was it. And I knew there had to be a root cause. And so talk to us about when you think of reversal autoimmunity, when it comes to thyroid and more what comes to mind.

Jill Carnahan, MD

Yes. And my personal experience was after chemo and radiation, I was really sick. And six months after I got through cancer treatment, I was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease, Crohn’s disease, again autoimmune disease, where the body texts a gut lining. And I was quite sick and I remember seeing my gastroenterologist and he said, This is lifelong. You’re going to need steroids, you’re going to need immune modulating drugs. You’re probably going to have your colon removed over your lifetime. And it was depressing. There was no hope. And then right before I left to ask one question and it was, does diet have anything to do with this? And he did not pause. He said, Your diet has nothing to do with this. But that didn’t really. Hit. It right. Like, really, but this was 20 years ago. You didn’t know any better. I mean, the literature now supports the diet. Does have something to do with chronic colitis and autoimmunity in general. But at that moment, all I had was my intuition and my intuition said, this can’t be right. So it’s a gut. Like how can it not have any good food? So I went on a, you know, a search and I found a specific carbohydrate diet, which at that time was some of the best evidence and really helped me to start to reverse the Crohn’s. And now I’m completely cured. I do not have Crohn’s anymore. Right? So what I learned in that process, though, was there are ways to look, just like I said, that the trait of genetics, environmental insults and the gut immune interface and if you look at that, you start to reverse things that triggered or came before the diagnosis and you actually deal with those kinds of triggers. You can absolutely reverse autoimmunity. I’ve seen it myself and I’ve seen it in hundreds of patients since then. Now it takes time, it takes effort, and not a whole lot of immunity is going to be reversed. That’s the truth. But the truth is it’s possible. And to have that possibility is powerful medicine.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Right. And the goal may not be, again, to reverse the autoimmunity, because then people could get really discouraged. But the goal is to get on the path to healing and keep going. Keep going. Every step that you take is in your favor and it’s going to help your health span in your lifespan. And as women, we we are caretakers. We just in the society we are. And so I always say when Mama’s happy, you know, everybody’s happy. And so it trickles down when you take care of yourself, when you can help again, any doctor that you go to that’s worthwhile to go to will start with what Dr. Jill talked about clean air, clean water, clean food. They’ll start there so you can start there today. You really can’t. I did want to ask you if you had a brand of air filter that you like.

Jill Carnahan, MD

Yeah. So Austin Air is what I have in my house and home office and IKEA is another good one and so is Air Doctor. Those are the top three that I use and love and all of those have both the HEPA filter and the VOC filter.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Okay, great. I knew we were going to we were going to get that question, so we’ll just answer it now. Well, I think we went through some amazing topics with you. I know I could interview you for about 24 hours and dig deep on these, but you yourself have a podcast where you have some really great guests on there. And the name is Dr. Jill. Right. It’s pretty simple yet.

Jill Carnahan, MD

Dr. Jill Life.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Dr. Jill Life. So I would encourage anyone if you’re not listening to that podcast, really excellent guest. She really does a great job of making it very practical and also weaving in the science because we have a lot of practitioners who are listening, who want to know about told like receptors and I’ll one beat out and things like that. So very practical the information on there. Where else can people find you? Dr. Jill.

Jill Carnahan, MD

Yes. So my main site is my name. JillCarnahan.com loads and loads of free resources, articles, etc. all there. If you want to get the book read unexpected outcome and have lots of free bonus. Is there a free lecture on mass activation? A free chapter that’s not included in the book, and a coloring journal so you can induce a flow state. So that’s all for either read unexpected dot com and be sure and catch me on Instagram just Dr. Jill Carnahan. I do all kinds of fun, silly things on Instagram. Hi.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

So awesome. Well, thank you so much for being so generous with your time today. Dr. Jill I look forward to meeting you in person. I know you teach for a forum and I’m usually at all those conferences. But again, thank you so much for your time and your knowledge today.

Jill Carnahan, MD

You’re welcome. Dr. Kelly, it was fun.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Thank you for joining me. Dr. Kelly Halderman on the Thyroid series for the DrTalks podcast. I hope you found this episode informative and engaging, and if you did, make sure to subscribe to our podcast so you don’t miss out on future launches. Don’t forget to follow DrTalks on social media platforms including TikTok, LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram to stay informed about our latest updates and events. For more information on thyroid conditions and other health topics, visit our blog at DrTalks.com/Blog where you’ll find a wealth of in-depth articles and resources to help you manage your health effectively. If you want to learn more about the latest medical breakthroughs or how to prevent, treat and reverse chronic conditions, sign up for one of our free summits at DrTalks.com/Calendar You’ll find that DrTalks Summits feature some of the leading health experts in the world, and they’re a great way to stay up to date on the latest research and protocols. Thanks again for tuning in. We look forward to bringing you more valuable insights in our next episode. We’ll see you next time on the Dr. Talks podcast.