Breaking The Cycle: A Veteran’s Journey of Healing, Purpose and Transformation

Opening Reflection and Podcast Introduction 0:00

breaking a lot of these cycles that you were going through, but not forcefully, just allowing it, allowing what was the next part of the wave and accepting that part, I think, was what really started to show over time, because you could have been crashing against the same wave over and over again, not realizing that can really just float right above it. Welcome to the To Curious in Me podcast. I'm Dr. Ali Ahmed. With the wisdom from holistic, alternative and these conventional medicines, we are here to challenge the status quo.

We're curious about the connectivity and complexity between diverse fields of knowledge as it relates to consciousness, chronic illness, mental health, resilience and beyond. Learning more about art and science of healing, or listening to stories of extraordinary healing. You're in the right place. Let's dive in. Welcome to the Two Curious podcast where we ask the unasked questions because we believe curiosity fuels discovery, discovery fuels creativity. And here we are at the intersections of all the sciences of integrative medicine, psychedelic medicine and narrative and story and the arts.

So welcome Pranil. We are so excited to have you as a veteran. who has been doing ketamine assisted therapy at Charmine's Healing Center. And just a little bit about Pranil. Prannil, in addition to being a patient who had really taught us through his healing journey, what he was able to discover in his treatment. Parnil is also an author, an entrepreneur and also a mental health advocate and his life now from what I can tell on Instagram and social media and his LinkedIn and even what can see him in practice doing is really transforming, building that self-realization and breaking the limiting cycles that we can live in through the work that he does in his community and through his book, as well as his belief in its practice of what the world that's he's doing now in these businesses.

So welcome to TMD. Thank you so much both for having me on. I love the opportunity and the chance to kind of speak my story a little bit and kind go through my journey as an individual, as part of this collective and seeing what I really discovered throughout the phases of the therapy and also what really came about it as I still go though some of it today, but most of healing I think has taken place over the course of last year and a half. So in your book, Breaking the Cycle, where you talk about cycles, patterns, both that help us and hinder our growth.

Why Ketamine Therapy Became the Turning Point 2:51

When you first started ketamine treatment, what is it that you believe brought you in through the doors towards your healing? What brought me through doors for ketamin therapy is I've been in the mental health, I guess, mental treatment facilities for about 20 years post my departure from the Marine Corps. And a lot of that has just been hit and miss, medication after medication, different therapists after a different therapist. It seemed like that in itself was a cycle. a cycle that wasn't breaking, a circle that we had to do something different about.

And when I heard about the VA approving ketamine therapy along with some other psychedelic-type therapies, I figured what would be the easiest impact on my current life and situation that I can take advantage of and see if I could put in for it. Now, it took a while through the V.A., but they did happen to find a great provider in Sacramento called Shawn Mein Tune Center, if you're listening. But let's go for Let's, let's try something different. At the time I, there was a lot of unfinished business in my life and unfinished as business as well.

I was starting a new business at the. Lots of things going on. had just lost my father, I would say a year ago that I still not grieved over. That's what really brought me to the door is to try just something new after gone through so many different types of. You know, the medical in the books, in-the-box style treatment. And from there, just, you know it obviously escalated very fast. Oh, and what were those cycles that you mentioned that were patterned or that your looking to break or understand?

What would you say those cycle were for you now looking at life after this? Yeah, I would say there was a few cycles, right? The cycles of the routine, of getting through the day just to get through day, understanding that there were so many things that you're pushing up against the wall and not making any strides in. So the cycles in itself repeated itself and getting into that rut, breaking away from it is only trying to understand what else is available. and giving those things an opportunity.

This treatment itself was that opportunity for me and within itself, I think is what really broke open the doors to have me finally get this book out. It was only after the treatment started is when I actually finished breaking the cycle. And I'm reading on Amazon here that you donate all the proceeds from the sale of this books to support and to prevent school shootings and ensure the safety of every child. Absolutely. That's been a passion of mine is school safety. I got to think in my professional line of work, I work in security and safety and seeing, and this kind of thing came about as another story.

Well, you're talking about cycles and I think we should think about cycle as like ever expanding nested patterns within patterns. It is. And school shootings are a pattern. So I love that you connected the personal to the collective in such a beautifully elegant way. I'd love to hear that story. While in the Marine Corps, we've always had technology to keep people safe. Understanding that, if we just look at the progression of technology, a lot of it is given to The Department of Defense. Then over a course of time, I would say about a decade or so, it goes into the hands of the Fortune 500 companies and then it comes all the way down to commercial use.

And while during COVID I would say, I experienced, that I received a phone call and two of my security guards had succumbed to the illness. It got me thinking that we don't leave Marines behind. We don' leave soldiers behind and this cycle started again for me. That heartache that, we have the technology to do something about it, but yet we're not putting that out into use. And at this time, some of it was still a little bit expensive.

Breaking Cycles and Finding Purpose 7:00

So I left that industry a couple of years later to bring all these tools together and create Spade security services and what Spades does is that we are not in itself one subject matter expert. We bring the experts from all different fields under the umbrella of protection and bring those tools to the end user. And throughout it, I discovered so many different things that can do to help prevent school shootings. If we can't prevent our child from coming home safe, what is it that were doing? Right?

Right. Which is, which goes back to trauma, right? And the effect that trauma has on the body and, and not recognizing that the effective trauma the trauma response effect develops into a pattern of behavior. develops into a pattern of identity. And just back to your experience with ruchedamine, where you finished this book to help understand what you're working on. Tell us a little bit about how that evolved for you, like what are you working because patients do have sometimes a better understanding subconsciously of what they need, but making it again conscious becomes Again, this takes time to get to that place where you see it.

But what were you able to see, imagine or break through or not in your treatment? I think there was multiple layers of it, it's like therapy usually is described in peeling back the onion. And the way I seen ketamine therapy was slicing it right through the middle and opening up everything that was that could be and really having to go through that experience, feel it at once and discover these You know, I get emotional now, right? Thank you. Discovering these things that you didn't know that was painful and working through that pain, and a lot of it was pain.

Society doesn't tell men to show but to emotions, whether it's angry, anger in one way or another, or being happy. And there's so much to us as humans that being comfortable in a space and actually going through that different levels of emotion heals in different ways. And I think ketamine, the first stage of that was accepting that journey and understanding that there will be areas that's undiscovered to you, but being open to that healing. So a part of it was just that. After that piece of the onion, there was the next piece, which was discovery in I would say your motivation and purpose in life.

And were you in the right direction? Because there were some pathways that were opened up for me and there was some pathway that I wouldn't say closed, but I'd say I leaned against that shouldn't have. It made it more clear to me that this wasn't the avenue. I needed to take another step in a different direction. Sometimes as entrepreneurs, in the very beginning, you feel like I'm just trying to catch a break. I am trying catch something that's going to work, but not concentrating on what your true purpose is.

You know, I felt like that, that was what I was going through in very the beginning stages. But then focusing down into figuring out, hey, what is really my passion? And it's, it is in my community. If I have to try to do what I can as much as I, can to either keep my community safe. We love to see people walking around at 9 AM, but also at nine PM at 1 AM. And people shouldn't be afraid to that. So is our community's safe for us to take advantage of? And so those were the talks that I had with the local officials and I started to get more involved.

And my involvement then kind of grew from being, you know, just coming to meetings and now, being a, becoming the arts commissioner for Rocklin. I'm also sitting on a couple of other boards in Rockland, which, again, wasn't what direction I intended it to be, but it evolved into. So I would say, you know, your purpose could be discovered or rediscovered through the therapy. And it starts with healing. It does start with discovering what is it that was undiscoverd as you go through process. You know the analogy of just cutting the onion open and letting it all fall out and noticing how it falls out too and what opens, and then also the patterns that break, right?

Because the union has a pattern that's nice and neat. displayed as well, and you can look at it as you described. And I love that you kind of have this visual representation of something that can be very hard for some people, truly. I mean, if everybody said, cut up the beep open, are they ready for that? Is this something you work through with the tools that have right now, or do you need to get the tool first and then start to consider this process? And it can a painful process. At least from what I'm seeing in patients, but for you, what was that process of that discovery and to the bigger picture that you talk about, which is so valuable, right?

School Safety, Security Work, and Community Impact 12:00

The bigger pitch of what kind of existence do I want to be in? You know, that what you're describing also is this protection and safety is such a vital part of your belief system that we should be safe. All of us should say from children to adults and two places where there's a risk, That sense of safety is a passion of yours. I'm just curious about how did that evolve for you, this concept? Or is this something you already knew? Yeah, well, it's the one medium that I know very well is security and safety.

And I've dedicated a lot of my time to it and understanding it. But there's also lots of resistance, I think resistance within yourself. and also resistance from the community for what the possibilities could be, and is there some levels of privacy intrusion or not. So I think battling through the second stage of that is the fear factor, is when we haven't approached a situation or any of it, there's always that fear It's like going up a roller coaster, and as it's going, you're definitely having that anxiety and that fear factor.

But you can hold on as hard as you, can as its falling, or you let go and enjoy the ride. And I, at one point or another in the therapy, decided to let it go. That's beautiful. And I want to follow that up with, you're talking about safety, safety in the community and also the sense of safety that you felt in this healing container that we talk about as you were going through the treatment. Can you talk a little bit about what are the components of that safety? You know, what was the process like of recognizing what you needed to feel safe as you went through?

What were the aspects that you could rely on to say, okay, it is okay to let go and you can let and go you're going to be safe. A lot of it has to do with relationships and building a place where you feel that safe vibe. We talk about frequencies and vibrations and how that spiritual concept plays. And Dr. Mott and her team have just been absolutely fabulous about creating that Safe Zone and space and naming these spaces and going through the entire process with you. As a veteran, you go, I don't just skip this.

Let's just go to the therapy, right? That's what you think. But it's very valuable to know that there's someone there to, you know, give you that deeper understanding that you may not really realize until you start the process. It's like, we can talk about all these therapies until experience them, just like that roller coaster example, but finding the someone who you can to talk to during the session. And being open with that person, unconditionally knowing that that, person is there to help and assist and guide you through your journey and not being, not, being judgmental towards what you're saying and, and being judgemental towards you as a human being.

Cause we all have shadows in one way or the other. So whatever work that you are trying to get out of it is based on. You know, being resistant to the space, one, and being resistance to how much of it are you actually accepting that this is going to help me. So, I think for me, it was early on where I started the process and it didn't take much more than maybe a month until when it so comfortable and I was at ease with where we were to really start that letting go process. Yeah, it takes time. I think that's one of the lessons to take from what you just described is it's not a one and done.

And the first session is just a getting to know you. You know, in the psychedelic world, we talk about the handshake dose where you and the medicine get to You know, I think that's one of the pitfalls of when we put so much expectation and hope into ketamine therapy is we're so anxious that first time, you know we are going to, is it going work for me? You that is one the doubts that come up because we feel so damaged that nothing has worked so far that maybe even this, thing that's worked for so many other people won't work for me.

It really plays, you know, that negative voice that resistance comes up. And it takes a little while to let that voice come up and look around and say, Okay, you don't need me yet. All right, I'm going to go back, and then come out a few more times over that course of a month and be like, Hey, wait a minute. I think I see some changes. And it does take that bit of time to notice for yourself, right? It's not overnight. Cause there's, we know things that'll make you feel good for 10 minutes, two days, 10 days.

Right? We go on a vacation. I have a cup of coffee. My day is great. You know, I take a Tylenol. I got four hours, quit pain free, but we're looking for something sustainable. We're Looking for true transformation. So what were those things that you noticed, you know? How did you notice them? What came to you where you were like, Oh, can trust this. Like that deep sense of can, trust us. It's okay. I believe it was a combination of a few things that were going on. I was more into meditation at the time, and I say at that time because it's come and gone in different phases of my spiritual journey as well.

has become more of a passion. And so taking time for yourself to understand a little bit more rather than going back into the routine. Breaking a lot of these cycles that you were going through, but not forcefully, just allowing it. Allowing what was the next part of the wave and accepting that part, I think, was what really started to show over time. because you could have been crashing against the same wave over and over again, but not realizing that you can really just float right above it. And even though you may experience some of the downfalls in your life, you're not going to feel that type of emotional value towards that downfall as much

The Emotional Depth of Ketamine-Assisted Healing 18:00

as you would have because of that transformation that has taken place. where there was someone cutting you off on a freeway may just be like, that's okay. That person's probably running late. While previous emotions to that were, I'm going to get you, right? You know, why would you do that to me? And coming up against a red light over and over again, like I am running light. And these initial emotions that we're there started to dissipate, started change itself into something else. was when I was able to recognize that there is something going on that's bigger and greater than I have an understanding of, but everything that I'm doing is towards a progress that am willing to accept.

And I started to feel love for me again. So who is Pranil Shankar now? Who is he? What is He like? Tell us all about him and what was he like before? Praneil shankar was a pretty closed off individual for years. I'd say he kind of curled up into a corner and believed the world was against him. There were so many things that he wanted to do that were great, but he couldn't get things done. And all he had was this little inner circle of his family and some friends. While he tried to keep breaking out of this cycles in life, there was always resistance and change and fear.

There was that, hey, what if this or what is that? And those variables would continue to become more and more predominant rather than taking action. I think who Purnell became. in one way or another is that person really doesn't exist any longer. It's just going with the tides and the ocean waves has just been a part of who I've become over the last course of a year and a half. And it's opened up so much more for me and just being accepting of how life is. You can't change the people around you, which is one of the greater takeaways I think I have had, is you can change yourself because that's who you have control over.

And those other things will fall into place where they should and accepting that, right? If you love somebody, you loved them or you don't, and if you feel that there should be an expectation between the two of you, then there's some conditional love. And I believe at this point, I don' have that style of relationship anymore. Some people are here in your life for five minutes and some people here for a couple of years and they're on their journey. And you get to see sometimes these emotions that they have.

You can suggest, well, do A, B, C, D, E and you'll feel much better. Um, and I'm not the therapist any longer. I don't give those suggestions because I feel like we all have our journey and. They have to go through these experiences in order for them to break through them. And so I think Purnell now today looks at his journey as outward facing of what impacts are driven by his purpose in life. Wouldn't it be nice if he raised our children instead of saying what kind of What kind of person do you want to be?

What do want do for the world? Just let that question be as it is. What you do to do the for world and that would be a career. My career is protection, safety. I don't know, what would you name this career that you have? For me, I think my career currently right now is, as a whole, you know, can be identified in the professional world as the person around safety and security. But I feel that, this medium is only here for a little bit as it changes, As the world keeps turning and as we keep changing on who we are.

There are other dreams of mine that are finally coming to fruition. And I, think those things will change. I Think this is another step for me to progress out of in So, who I will be in 20 years, I don't even know, right? I think who am today is exactly who said, you know. I'm a family man. Love. Um, um, a guide more to my kids at this point. In giving them the choices, whether, they want to do something and giving him the option so they understand both choices and they can make it for themselves.

And I think they're better off making those choices because we, growing up, didn't have that. It was a dictatorship. Right? Because, you know, this is what you're going to do and this when you gonna do it and, and a lot of times the old pernil was like that, You know? And having to let that go, understanding there's a new approach because there are so many ways that we can live our lives. And, I, think them being as little as they are, need to have those choice early on because those are memories that last for a lifetime.

So I'm so curious, this is gorgeous, as you're talking about this transformation, even letting go of that old and accepting that the next is, you know, is I am going to flow with whatever is and that this moment, the transformation. What are you seeing around you? You know you brought in, your parenting style, what is showing up in the world for you in this moments in your relationships? Yeah, great question. I believe that Not even I believe, I would say I know that right now the choices that I have made and that relationship that have opened up, wouldn't have imagined it even three months ago.

I'd say healing was a part of the journey, but once you've kind of understand where you are in your place, those things that you want to manifest in the world start to become a reality. Whether it's financial stability, whether it is the relationships that you cater towards. My wife and I have been married for 19 years and it has been the best relationship that we have had up till now. We are so much more open with each other. She is more accepting of the things that she sees. There is no longer that fake emotions that we want to hide amongst each other because we wanna be this perfect individual.

We just are who we are. And if we can talk through those things, it just makes us in a better position. Now, some relationships do tend to go away at the same time as new ones are formed. Because as you, I think, align more to your true self, those frequencies and vibrations open up the next level of opportunities or relationships of that nature.

Safety, Trust, and Letting Go in Treatment 24:30

And there's some that go away and it's okay for those to go way. So yes, I'm still within, a transformation as we all are in one way or another, but today's beautiful. And I love everything about it. We go back to the term entrainment, right? It's the entrapment both what you resonate with, what your frequencies start to match with. Right. That's entramment and entranment goes in so many levels. It goes into the. cellular resonance of frequency, the mechanical frequency in the brain. And then you talk about the social entrainment, which is your environment, right?

When your kids and your wife kind of recognize your energy is not as activated as it was, and they can settle and can resonate with that energy frequency. Then what attracts that frequency is It's also a way of that expanded entrainment. And so it's all about entraiment. I drew it here because you can medically put it into words what I felt. So I read, yeah, it was working. That's a, I think it is not even a medical word actually. It should be, right, Cindy? Yeah. Should be a word. It's a concept and I think it has to do with resonance and sound and just the physics of it.

But I'm really, you know, kind of even thinking that there's like a philosophical kind thing that ties all of this together. I mean, we've talked safety, trust, transformation, and it's we're in a crucible here, There's also like this, you know, I read a little bit of a post you made last week about, just what dharma means to you, right? Like what your spiritual kind of understanding of what it is that we're embedded in. And I'm hearing those threads as you're talking, like going with the flow of things, the energetics, trusting.

There is just this like, as your talking the sense of groundedness to your energy. Like, you're very sure, relaxed in your confidence, and it shows. It glows. Every cell is kind of radiating that. And I want to just ask you, how do you conceptualize that, or how you think about it? I don't know if I think a lot about that as far as me glowing. What's your secret? cleanser, sedative, yeah. So my wife puts all these masks and stuff on, I go, see? I don't even need to do that anymore. I just think I'm clean and it works.

You just radiate outwards. Well, this is what we're talking about. This transformation is inner to outer. And we were talking this inner process and then it becomes manifest outwardly. It's really hard and I think that's where we are here in this podcast trying to really understand What is it that allows someone to do that? Because it doesn't work the same way for everybody. There's the struggle of actually getting ketamine therapy to work for you. And there's a lot of people who are doing it not in this way and are not seeing the benefits.

So it's not just, oh, ketamine, the molecule, you get the infusion and you're done. We're talking about there is an entire system within you and you have to give it permission for it to be activated and have a reason for why. You have find your reason why and then when you found your reasons for and the changes are happening then you gotta have some direction, some way to shoot your arrow because now you're like a force. You've got Arjun's arrow lined up. You better know which way you're heading.

So what's your kind of way of bringing this together? Because obviously you are living by that and we can tell it's showing. I appreciate that. Absolutely. Again, ketamine is just that one door. It's just a door that opened up like is it going to be beneficial is only how much you interpret that benefit to me and how drive to the next levels in your life or the cycles through your live, either enhancing those things in one way or another, and then accepting the other items that come along with it.

So I think I could have seen this cycle negatively impact me as well in certain points where you didn't feel good. And it's not every therapy gives you the same boost and energy for the It's now opening up something else that you may not have thought of. I can say that it just starts with your core belief of, is my doing this just to do this or am I doing for something better? Am I, am my, doing is for the betterment of me. And what does that mean to you? And so when I went or I started, it was just an opportunity that was giving a try and it open to it.

But now where that focus has really kind of come down to different levels, you have to incorporate this as I think, just a part of the meal to as a side dish even. to your meal, which is considered your life. And how do you then dissect that? Is it changing your meals in your lives? And for me, it has. It's changed courses, you know, a couple of times. it's like, It has gone through its own where I've, I felt like I have resonated lower. I feel like it resonated much higher and it is to find a balance.

So how I, feel, like the outwardness comes out is only because of how much you put into yourself. One and two is. taking that and continuing the journey. We've all gone to parties and met with mixers and everyone's had this really great time and people are talking about business or relationships. And over the course of three weeks, it's kind of fizzled down, right?

Transformation, Family, and New Relationships 30:30

And you got to re-energize that. But how do you keep that energy going while you're not in that situation? How do keep the energy or what you have just discovered from that session carried over as a positive impact over the next three to four weeks? So for me, it was looking back and actually documenting. And I was writing and I saying, hey, this is how I felt. This is what I wrote. went through and I just wrote it, whether it was good, bad, ugly, whoever wants to interpret it. It was just what it once.

And me looking back at it going, okay, huh, you know, now I see it from a different perspective three weeks later and maybe even a difference vantage point that I'm rediscovering something that. I didn't think of at the time. And I think those things then finally hit home. As you start feeling the things in the drive, as you started feeling, the different emotions, writing it down was just another way of capturing it. Talking about your sessions afterwards actually helps you discover so much more without just saying, Hey, I want to, hold this within myself.

I've had a great session, but I don't want to talk about it. I think if you don' talk it, you're doing yourself a disservice. Whatever you felt, whatever you saw, You need to try to verbalize it in one way or the other and it will come to you as you go through that. Most recently. So a recent session I had, I was, the inspiration and the focus point was more internal to me and to discover a little bit more into the shadow works that we were talking about. And we started off seeing pastels and colors and water and underneath the water, and shapes and colours and me trying to play with it.

And I didn't know what all it meant. I think it ended with, you know, laughter and so forth. But after coming out of that and talking through it, I felt like that session for me was becoming a kid again and getting to enjoy the things I never had. And I felt like I saw colors for the first time in that fashion through that experience. I've felt, like, being raised in the household I was was very strict, and not being able to play as I given an opportunity was beautiful. So I think this session's bring things to you that you may not think of, but it definitely is beneficial to talk through them.

I want to just honor what you just, because it really resonates even across on the screen. It resonates. Your story resonates that child looking at the colors, a colorblind child, looking in all the colours, thinking of play, Thinking of what I can do now. Hearing that something was healed in that session, it was that heart of self that was holding onto a sense of isolation. I'm not like everybody else. I don't get to play like everybody else. And what that, you know, that emotion that just came up is so complicated that we can't put it into words.

But when we feel it and we resonate together and recognize that it was reflected back to us, this very complicated, sweet, beautiful, precious, transpersonal, meaning happening between not just two people here in this realm, but between all of us and the child. Yes. In that other realm to say you are cared for. You are loved. Yes, you didn't get to experience it, but sure it is. Very real way. And that goes deep to that layers of the onion that you're cutting. Like you just went yet another layer and healed.

How just absolutely tremendous that we have the ability to plumb so deep into our own psyche. By you sharing, it resonated. It touched a chord. Because we have this experience universally, but generationally and, you know, our historical generational traumas that we carry that, the stories of our patterns, behavior that has existed before we were born, right? And what that feels like to really connect to, to that part of you that was hurting or that of part you was held down by this dictatorship as you described.

I mean, this is very, it resonates and story resonates. We're all three from the subcontinent and our generational, we have a shared generational trauma and so it resonated and it healed as well. Thank you. Yeah. And I'm really brought to thinking of what that work you just did or what just happened or was allowed to happen in that crucible allows us in a very essential way to get out of our own way, right? you now no longer carry that in that heavy way. And sometimes it even opens up that channel to, you know, look at those conditions with compassion.

Look at the people who are around you at that time with maybe more compassion than you have been able to in the past, right? And how that repairs our relationship in this moment, as we're all getting into this area of aging parents, right, where we were very aware that our, you know, that generation has not only gone through trauma, but we have shared this traumatic experience of migration and scarcity and the stresses of survival, really, and alienation and, being, new and this American world and what that asks of our children.

We haven't talked about the burdens of migrant children in this country, you know. But what it does is it gets into, that whole experience gets in the way of relationship with our parents. Like it get in a way to be able to show love or truly feel it. And when we do this work, what we're doing is actually repairing the relationships in our present. Because your heart is now more open, right? Absolutely. I think there's so much to these discoveries that it goes beyond words. It goes behind the feeling and the emotions that carry in the outward direction is what you talked about was the internal healing at the cellular level.

Integration, Reflection, and the Future of Healing 36:30

I think it starts to then become a different you because you're changing something and healed something, and experienced all of it at once where you couldn't have understood it years ago. And it's in stages. If this thing, if this experience would have came. two, three years ago, it might not have felt as what I had felt that session. So I think, you know, again, having that open-mindedness and looking forward to what you have today, because these choices that we have right now are the ones that make us really experience life to the fullest.

And a part of it is either the therapy or part is the relationships. A part it the spiritual growth and a lot of is you because that's the only person you have control over as you. I left you speechless. You talk about thriving and thank you for being here, Pranil, and really sharing your story. Yeah. And I just want to honor that. Absolutely. It's a beautiful thing that space, you know, to give that space to breathe. Well, you're welcome. I really appreciate, being on and having to gone through some of my journey.

Really feel that other veterans should look into the ketamine assisted therapy in one way or another, whether just talking through it with someone that has experienced it or being open to conversations with the facilitation of how the process works. If you were open to it, I would definitely say take the first step. It is life-changing. And we usually close our session with a question because we are two curious MDs. What would be a curious question that you would like to ask us or the audience or yourself?

Well, curious question. See, I should have prepared a little bit. I know, not supposed to, right? I would say a question to the both of you. Where do you see this process headed in the future for more people? How do see it developing in next five years? I think the key word is for four more people, and four or more is exactly what we're looking at where our challenge is today. And that is really the purpose, again, to make this podcast is to educate four, more, people so that they have knowledge and they can come prepared and see the experience of others and learn from that experience.

So I would say if we are educating four more people, we're again, opening up that possibility, which again allows that question of more, people can learn and more. People can do the treatments and become aware. And then we get to advocacy, Which is another work that we doing, but at Two Curious MD we, or IACAP, We are adolescent and young adult providers, ketamine assisted providers. That's the acronym. And it's an advocacy platform because we want to raise awareness, we wanna educate, and we our government to pay attention, our healthcare to attention to this, to the outcomes, patient stories and experience.

And that's very important. So the next years, few years I feel like there will be an opening to other ways of healing, which has already been a discussion. Patients are already seeing the gap in healthcare and they're needing something else and their seeking it. So that is going to happen and we have to be ready for that. And that's why education for people who are doing this work. It's so vital. And there are ethical questions around this work too that needs to be in our constant forefront of our work that we're doing.

So the next few years, I hope I answered your question, is really an access-based, driven on need, diverse on demand and education. It was, it's not going to come the other way. No, that I totally agree. I think the work you're that you are doing is, um, can't even put it into words how valuable it is. Thank you. Thank you for now. Thanks for joining us on the Two Curious MD podcast. We hope today's episode inspired you to ask new questions and explore fresh perspectives. post or comment with a question or curious inquiry that you have and seek to explore or learn with us.

Stay curious and we'll see you next time.