Crunches Are Not Your Midlife Friend. Neither Is 10,000 Steps. Here’s What Actually Works

Welcome to the Menopause Medicine Summit 0:00

Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Future of Menopause Medicine Summit with me, your host, doctor Sharon Stills, formerly known as Mastering Your Menopause Transition. So this is year five that we're at it. And it's always lovely to be here with all of you and learn together and get to talk to amazing guests who are doing amazing things in the menopause space. And I'm sure many of you recognize the face next to me, because she's definitely been here before. Another one of our fan favorites and a favorite of mine because she's a personal friend and she's also a new grandma.

And so she used to live near me, and now she lives in Iowa near her baby, which I'm miss her, but I'm totally in support of being near you grandbabies. And she's Deb Atkinson of Flippin 50, and she is all about how to save your body, save your muscles, save your bones, move your body, exercise. Right. And this is I remember like one of the first times I interviewed her, it was like probably 4 or 5 years ago. And she was talking about how you get to exercise less. And I was like, really? Because I was still in that mindset of like, you know, I hit the cardio hard and I got to sweat and I got to do all this.

And it was like such a breath of fresh air. And now sometimes when I'm relaxing, I think, thank you, Deb, thank you for giving me that permission. So she's really going to she's really going to educate you. She has a new method we're going to talk about and just what you need to be doing, because what we need to be doing as we're in our menopausal years is very different than what we needed to be doing when we were in our 20s and taking three back to back Lucille Roberts classes. So Deb Atkinson, welcome.

Welcome to the summit. I'm so excited. I always learn something when I talk to you, and I know this is going to be a really important talk for everyone listening to hear that you so much. My favorite topics and my favorite host. How's that?

Introducing the Halo Method 2:12

So I you know, you're just so profoundly knowledgeable about and obviously, you know, you walk your talk, you're always you're always on Instagram walking, doing some kind of exercise, mobility, strength training, flexibility, all these things. But I'm curious because you have this, you know, I noticed in some of the notes that you have this new method called the Halo method. And I thought we'd just start with that. Like, what is the Halo method? How did it develop and how can it benefit everyone listening?

Of course. Well, it's probably a lot like doing the laundry and folding the towels. And you realize when somebody else does it that you have a system and they may not be doing your system. And as I started to teach more trainers and more coaches who want to be more effective with their midlife client and realize that just the old follow the guidelines and position statements and do the right thing doesn't always work with a woman right in front of them who's struggling with sleep or with hot flushes, night sweats, and they want to comply with they can't.

So I needed a way to teach a framework. Not that every single person should do exactly this, but that was at least a framework so that we could get to what is your, you know, anagram. What is the where's your sandbox? What can you be playing with right now? And of those toys, which is your highest priority. And that's the most important piece. So you may have two things going on that one contradicts the other. The protocol that would be ideal for one contradicts the other. And that happens all the time in medicine happens all the time and fitness too.

So we look at this, we call it the Halo method, which is kind of a cool name. So I didn't have to work too hard to find that. Exactly right. Short of a crown. We've got something there, but age stands for hormone. So what? What is your hormone status? So if a woman were premenopausal versus Perry and post-menopausal when we insert kind of menopause transition in there too. Because if we know she's just turning or she's just on the verge of 11 months, no period, we know that there are certain physiological things going on that we should pay attention to, and she wants to mitigate.

So that's one. Two. The A stands for activity age. Meaning how long? Most recently not back when you were 20, but most recently, have you been consistently hitting the exercise goals and doing at least two times a week resistance training, doing some amount of cardio each week? You know, that's an important piece. So are you 0 to 3 months? Are you three months to 12 months or you beyond 12 months? You've been consistent for that long. That tells us what's going on with your joints, your ligaments, your tendons doing.

Still need to lay down a foundation here. Do we still need to lay down the foundation for mitochondria and energy at the cellular level? And we don't need to rush ahead to heavy or really hard because we're not going to get fit faster, but we might rush to injury. So that tells me a lot about what can we do. And you've learned a lot. The longer you've been doing it, you learned a lot about yourself. So I'm always co collaborating with a student or a member or a woman. One on one. L stands for limitations and we've all got them.

You may not have a special condition, but time and energy are both limiters. A woman who's not sleeping has a limiter. If you do have osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia, I think a lot of women would also say I've osteoporosis. I personally would not call that a limiter anymore. Now that we know what we know. But there are many more that are we've got multiple things by the time we get to this point in life. And oh, of Halo stands for the outcomes. What are the highest priority outcomes?

And you might come to me with this is my outcome. I want this desired outcome. But based on where you are. We're also going to kind of intelligently and scientifically say, if you want to live really long, strong, these are the other outcomes that we want to focus on too. So we again co collaborate and say these are probably the most important things. And then we can prioritize when we have that overlap. Of those four things we have some things in the middle. Some might have been left off after one category because we can't do maybe if somebody got prolapse or incontinence, we'd love for them to be jumping or doing high impact.

But that's not in the cards right now. So that's off. But there are things left in that that we can do to support them. So that's really where we start. And under each of those little details of pre versus Perry versus menopause

Itu2019s Never Too Late to Build Strength 7:18

or the early to a late stage activity consistency, there's a different group of exercise parameters that we can follow. And so we get really quickly into here's where we really want to be focusing on I love that you're like the doctor of exercise, right? Because you know, as you're saying that I'm like, these are things I think about when I'm evaluating a patient. So, you know, that's just brilliant. Rather than just saying everyone needs to do this and set you up for failure. So there's a couple of questions that I just hear all the time that I'm just going to kind of like rapid fire at you.

Right? Because, well, one would be if someone is listening and they're in that state of activity where they really don't have a lot of activity, and they're sitting here and there, you know, maybe they're 60 or 65 or maybe they're 50 or 55, and they just they've been off the wagon and they haven't really been exercising like one. Is it ever too late, or is it always possible to build the magic muscle? I guess would be my first question. Never too late. I mean, we are within the last year, more studies even coming out, and but these have lived here for decades.

We've known this but 85 plus year olds. There was a recent study that came out comparing a group of 85 plus year olds. It was mixed men and women and 65 to 85 year olds. And they had them go through the same strength training program. Don't quote me. I think it was about 8 to 10 weeks. So a justified amount of time to actually see some change. Both groups improved by mass and strength, but the 85 plus group improved percentage wise the most not absolute strength. They weren't picking up the heaviest of weights, but their percentage of improvement was far greater.

And it may have been because they had a longer period of taking a sabbatical, shall we say, but it's so exciting that we've known that in their 90s you can gain strength, but we haven't seen a lot of evidence that you can gain muscle mass, meaning not that you're going to get bulky in your 80s, I promise you that. Probably not happening in your 50s either. But what is probably happening is the quality and the quantity of the muscle is improving so that that will help metabolic health, your metabolism, and you're stronger.

You're going to get up and out of a chair. And so body composition also improves. Life just improves. So is it. That's exciting. So that's good news is it. Can you speak a little to you know we always say like the weights you're lifting today are, you know, informing who you will be when you're 60 or 70. And so can you speak a little to that. Absolutely. And I think the biggest piece of importance right here is that there's segregation going on.

How Hard Should You Lift? 10:42

There's one group over here saying, lift heavy shit, and there's another group over here saying they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong. And I think today I put my hands up and I was like, you guys, let's just try to get along. Like we're alienating each other and we're confusing consumers. The woman who needs us right now is just watching this ping pong mat. Let's just get on the same page and agree. We want to help people. So the most important thing based on recent research is effort matters.

So whether you are picking up a little bit lighter weight, meaning you're doing more like 15 or 20 repetitions and or you're picking up a heavier one and maybe you're doing five or 7 or 8 repetitions. It's because if you're reaching muscular fatigue or getting close to tired at the end of repetition ranges like that, you either have a heavier weight with few repetitions or a lighter weight with heavier ones. All that matters is that you have an effort that consistently gets you to. I don't think I can do too many more with good form.

I'm starting to feel the strain instead of training, so we want to make that distinction. You want to train, not strain, and yet you want to be ready to say, I need to put this down. It's like we've all experienced it. You may say, well, I don't want to work that hard, but you have you have moved a couch or a table in your home and you've done it with somebody else and you've carried it for long enough. You said, just a minute, I need it. I need to put down for a second, you know, what about to fatigue feels like without having to think too much.

You've done it in life, and we just need to work with that kind of effort, because that's the overload that makes the muscle respond in the rest days between our exercise sessions. I love that. Yeah, there is so much confusion. I call it knows sometimes and it does. Like you said, it hurts. You know, the women who are watching who are just trying to figure things out. So it's so good to have a voice of reason, sanity, experience and knowledge to guide so belly fat. Like every day, at least once I'm asked, how do I get rid of my belly fat?

So how what would how would you answer that? Well, I will tell you, if we start at the bottom and say, I'll give you the what I wouldn't do if I wanted to lose belly fat, and that would be lie on my back and do any kind of a core exercise reminiscent of a crunch or a sit up. Those days has have sailed, and truly, they're not all that effective, and they'll potentially a little more injurious than beneficial. So crunches and sit ups are really not a girl's best friend. But the truth is, it's not in a core exercise that is going to help you burn fat.

We're not going to burn local fat. And I think we know that if we wanted to lose the fat right here, the second wing that still waves when you're done waving, we've all got a little of that. You're not going to lose that by doing tons and tons of arm work. Only we have to kind of look at it collectively. We've got to focus on diet a little bit. We've got to focus on getting good sleep, drinking plenty of water and moving, but moving the overall body. So two of the best things shown in actually three, I'll give you number one resistance training.

Losing Belly Fat and Training Smart 14:27

Just working total body. So doing exercises for your chest, your back your legs. Major muscle groups has one of the greatest effects positively on belly fat, particularly that visceral belly fat. That is when you can't pitch an inch. It's internal. It's what I call Santa Claus belly when it's really taught. And, you know, you couldn't pinch an inch if you wanted to. We know that's internal and around internal organs. Much more risky weight training actually gets to that without you actually doing a core exercise.

We help to reduce that by changing the body composition overall, but it also impacts that significantly. The second thing. Research has been shown for postmenopausal women who do high intensity interval training helps significantly with belly fat. Again, visceral belly fat. And yet not every woman can do that in my experience. So, you know, you will show up at a, you know, fitness brand that has a color name in the title, and you'll go through a boot camp and you'll come out wringing your shirt thinking, that was so good because it was so hard and it left you drained.

And that is supposed to. And in the research, it looks really nice and clean that it helps to burn fat not so much during, but after because the 2430 six hours after a really hard workout, your body is repairing and that takes a lot of oxygen when you're consuming more oxygen and doing all that repair for hours, you're also, in the end, burning more fat. However, a lot of women who show up wanting to lose weight are already fatigued. They're already dealing with some level of exhaustion. And so without being a physician, because I don't diagnose.

But I would guess if they came to see you, you'd say, there's a level here of adrenal issue going on. And I think a lot of us have that going on. And when you do, I've seen high intensity interval training actually backfire. And they end up storing more fat because they're kind of driving that stress reaction and stress response in deeper. And then sometimes you take that off the plate. You do a little more walking. In yoga, we potentially keep the strength training in and the visceral belly fat in the pinch an inch, both tend to come down.

So we have to kind of reduce and reset first. They may be able to come back to high intensity interval training later, and it could be beneficial for their aging and cardiovascular fitness. But it's not always everything. Right now, in the moment you're in, you have to look at how you feel. I love that. So I hear this question to all the time like fasted, non fasted. When do I work out time of day. So if you can just give us like your overview of those kind of questions okay. So bottom line is the research is pretty clear that if a woman is eating a well-balanced, adequate diet, meaning adequate calories and adequate amounts of protein and rich in micronutrients, it really doesn't matter if you exercise, fasted or fed.

Do what you prefer. Do not sit and think about that one while you should be exercising. Just do it. I do think if you're a woman who's struggling to hold on to your lean muscle mass, if you're a little more on the frail side and you really can't afford to lose any, and there is any chance that you've dieted or you you tend to default to lower calories, eating less simply because of the habit gravity of 40 or 50 years of conditioning that you should do that. I think it's beneficial for a woman who's trying to preserve her muscle or gain it, to have a little something and have protein before, and we're not talking a lot.

So if you tolerated eggs, for instance, you know, a boiled egg or two, you've got a little protein on board that has been shown in research done by Abby Smith Ryan to preserve muscle from exercise. And we typically don't think of protein as something that we'd have before cardio exercise. But that also has proven that for women in menopause, it will help us hold on to the lean muscle mass, because if you don't have it on board and you need calories, your body is going to resort to finding those essential amino acids from the protein in your muscle.

And so you're kind of countering what it is you're really trying to do by not eating. And then what about after? Do you need to protein or carb load after your workouts? I don't think you need a carb load anymore. You know, 1980 called them. What's that one back. And, you know, even even for somebody who's more or less an endurance and they're not a lot of us who are still, you know, have joints that are happy with a lot of endurance anymore. So we're probably less likely to need it. We're less, we're running marathons.

But, you know, we don't have to. Again, it doesn't have to be like, oh, you got to do this immediately or it's no good. It's not doing it good, or you've got to do it within 30 minutes or 2 hours.

Fasted Workouts, Protein, and Timing 20:18

You know, I do like training women mentally to think that these calories have purpose by bookending around their workout. And I say that because even though I don't work with a lot of, you know, truly athletes, I lived in Boulder for a period of time, and everybody, everybody was they treated themselves like an athlete, even if they weren't. But that's not true anymore. But yet most of the women I work with probably under eat more than they overeat, and they're always trying to cut and eat less.

And their mind goes to, you know, what would be the least amount of calories that I would have? And so I think it can be helpful to give it purpose and to realize you might feel so different if you actually fuel around that workout. We don't have a problem doing hard exercise, but we do. After perimenopause and into post menopause, we have a problem recovering. We don't do that as well as we did when we were 20 and 30 in premenopausal. So unless we're eating either before or somewhat close, if you don't eat before, it's probably time to have a meal afterward anyway.

It just defaults to that, so I wouldn't skip it. Certainly I would be conscious about what I was putting in my mouth then. Yeah, that's that's been a theme we've been replaying that most women are not eating enough, which is also like a breath of fresh air, like, oh, I don't have to starve myself. I can actually nourish myself. And and I see this all the time. I see women who are, you know, extremely intelligent and, you know, high functioning, lots of decisions, you know, so their brain needs the fuel as well as they're starting to lift weights and consciously be active.

And what happens often when they start bringing the calories up? We're a little nervous. Yes. You know, we expect, oh, I'm going to gain weight. And I don't want to do that. I want to lose weight. But what we see is it's almost like they reboot the system in their metabolism, works in their favor, and women often start eating more and then drop a few pounds and they're like, what just happened here? In a good way. Yeah, yeah I know. And then what about timing? Do you have any wisdom advice? You know, best to do it as soon as you wake up later.

The exercise or the food? Yeah. The exercise okay. Okay. So we use saying so we have we have ten commandments at we call them guidelines at flipping 50. And the second one is intense early and light late. And you can do light exercise anytime you want to. It's not going to hurt anything. But the alliteration helps us remember intense early kind of helps you work with your cortisol. It's already there and on board. And so you're using that for fuel. And when women do bootcamp really hard things at 530 in the afternoon, 6:00, you're hitting that right after work.

You know, a lot of times they don't have the cortisol for the energy. And so they're pulling something else in that you may actually want to relax and calm and wind down. That's disruptive to your sleep quality if not quantity. So I find that if women do the intense exercise meaning high intensity interval training, getting breathless, doing those kinds of things, I'd rather see somebody do a really hard strength training session earlier in the day as early as they can. Inevitably, the question will come up how?

How early is a really like, how late can I go? I'd say early afternoon. And then, you know, if you didn't get it done. Don't try to catch up and make it up. Do yoga. Go for a walk that afternoon instead. You'll probably be better off. Put the hard thing to the next day, move it forward a little bit, and working with your hormones like that tends to help women wind down and in that place into the recovery and just nervous system, you know, and I think everybody's wired and tired and then wanting to push hard again in the exercise.

And usually those of us that want to do that need the opposite. All right. So now I'm like curious I want to know some of the other commandments. Can you show the first one. The first one plays right into this restore before more right. So say it again. Restore before more. Oh okay I love that. Yes. Just, you know, if you're already wiped out, you know, we tend to have this guilty thing that I should go exercise. I haven't done it. And yet it's like, wait a minute, you're exhausted. Why would you do that?

So those are the first two and the most important to deep sleep, you know? So if you're not sleeping, you're not going to get the rewards that you deserve from the fitness that you're doing in the first place. So we've got to work on that one, either with your own habits and hygiene, or seeing somebody like you to get a little bit more support, maybe to

The First Commandments: Restore and Protein 25:48

look at progesterone or other things that you might want to be doing. Go pro, meaning check your protein out. You know, I know there's a lot of controversy right now about how much protein do you actually need, you know, so I'm not the dietitian. I'm not an D. But I do see that women have better blood sugar control. They're in better moods when they have a little more protein on board. And so they're building their meals around protein and micronutrients. And I think it helps cravings. You know, we tend to have greater satiety.

And we just overall can get from meal to meal without wanting to snack or go wild with cravings. Yes, I am, I just finished all day long. I tell patients about eating protein and starting in the morning, and how it changes your mood and all the things so it you know, I love that you're emphasizing like these important things. We're all looking for this quick fix, but it always comes back down to like basically handling your stress. Like not getting rid of your stress, but learning how to dance with your stress, hydrating, sleeping like we can't skip these things.

And they're easy to say and harder to do, but they really are the foundation. The foundation. So what are like? What are some things that you hear out there that that drive you crazy, that you want to make sure our audience hears that and goes, now? Deb said that was nutso, so I'm not going to listen to that. Well, I think we can come back to lift heavy shit or it doesn't count. I think something shaming you to make you feel like I'm lifting lightweights and this doesn't matter. Again, if you reach muscle fatigue, it does.

In terms of the research that's out there on bone density. We saw this during the pandemic and it kind of happened very spontaneously. But we have a beginner strength training program, you know, and it's not that somebody advance doesn't go back and do that as well. But it's a great starting place. About 15 to 20 reps. We had somebody doing that during the pandemic and she had just found out first Dexa scan, you know, and that's a little scary when you like what you know, I've been a healthy person my whole life.

How did this happen. And so she wanted to do something. So she only had about seven more months until her next Dexa, and she reversed her osteoporosis to osteopenia. And the following year even better, but on 15 to 20 reps. So it doesn't have to be as heavy as we used to think. That bone required a little more force than then did muscle. We're not seeing that. So up to about the first year, moderate strength training. And we all have to start light by the way. So we start way back there. Then we get to moderate.

And that's about 1516 repetitions in the research. That's what the researchers deemed moderate for about the first 48 weeks showed continual increase in bone density. So that's not extremely heavy. That's really fairly comfortable. That's a weight you would probably voluntarily go pick up and do it. And after that researchers suggest you may plateau. You know. And they don't know. We don't know enough yet to say, if you keep doing that load, will you? You you're not going to lose what you've put on or reversed the loss.

You're not going to lose that. But you may not gain more. You may plateau there. Some of us will have arthritis or joints that have been injured, and we can't go any further. And that will be okay. I can maintain or I'm going to focus on other things that I can do. But for others who want to and feel like they could lift a little heavier, that's potentially an option. But even if you have osteoporosis, as long as you're not at high risk, it's not an extreme number or you have had a prior fracture, we'd no longer think we have to bubble wrap you.

We think you should move. We think you should add a little stress because we've seen nothing but positive results from doing it.

Walking, Steps, and Breaking Up Sedentary Time 30:30

And what about walking? How important is getting your 10,000 steps in every day? Is that an arbitrary number or. Well, no it rhymes. It was a great marketing strategy because 10-K a day rhymes. That's where it came from. Some marketers sitting up there is like, I want to say that I might have interviewed Mark Sisson the other day and he kind of took claim for that, by the way. Really. Yeah, yeah. But here's the deal. The the plateau is at about 7000. We get a ton of benefits, up to about 7000 steps.

And then it starts to plateau off. So what I like to see is I want you to walk. And I think that's kind of if we look at foundation of movement, if you were sitting here watching, you don't know where to start, that'd be the first thing I'd have you do. Get into a regular habit of walking every day, start with little bits and start increasing it so you have more stamina, more endurance, and you're going to feel better, I guarantee you, and you're going to want to do something more. And that's what we want.

We want you to become codependent. Period. Where pushers. But so when you say start slow, like if someone is listening and they're like, you know, they've been couch potatoes for a while and now, like, are we talking a ten minute walk? Like what? What do you really mean by that? Yeah, I think that's a great place to start. Or because we know that walking positively impact blood sugar so much. And if blood sugar and belly fat because the two are, you know, twin sisters right there. So if belly fat is something you want to work on and or blood sugar because you have mood swings and or your CGM told you that you've got blood sugar challenges, walking after meals ten minutes, you know.

And if you can't hit every meal afterward, ten minutes, which ones can you and or breaking up sedentary time. So just starting to even track your steps and have a little competition with yourself. How many did I get every day this week? Can I shoot for a gold next week? That's just a little bit higher than that. It's a great way to start. And again, walking for 30 minutes 45 minutes is wonderful, but if you sit the rest of the day, the benefits of actually doing shorter segments of walking throughout the day is sometimes better, depending on your goal.

And for women who are at a desk a big portion of the day. Do you have any, you know, stand, sit, take a like do you have any tips just to get some extra movement in? Absolutely. Stand said yes. And the city came out a couple of years ago. Ten air squats every 45 minutes between your 8 or 9 hour a day helps improve blood sugar more than a 45 minute walk in the morning. So intermittent breaking up of sedentary time really does matter. And so we say, well, you're not getting steps in if you do that, but you are moving major muscles, even little things like under the desk, pump your heels up and down because your calf muscles are like a lymph pump, circulating blood back to your heart and helping to flush that out.

So any little thing that you can do, if you are one of those people who you cross your legs and your leg is swinging, and other people say, stop that. You just keep going because all that little twitching adds up. It's great. Oh my God, there's so much permission. It's like, no more crunches. Only 7000 studies is fantastic. I love that, you know, as you're saying that, I'm thinking, oh, we should be doing office air squats. And yeah, I think I need to get an office routine going with the new clinic.

I find myself at my desk a lot longer than than typical. Oh my goodness. You should go pop into a therapy. Shouldn't you just go? Yes, we do that to any. I mean, I could just talk to you all day, but any last like. So what drives you crazy? Any, like, things that you want to just leave with the ladies listening about what they can do? You know, I think number one, you just you need to find a voice and commit to it for a while. You know, I think the hardest thing is looking at social media and scrolling and think, oh, she says this and she says that, and we're all going to counter each other.

And really, you know, that social media is just all about a buy for attention. So, you know, some of it's true, some of it's not. But the louder you yell, the more noise you make, your more attention you're going to get. And that's kind of the game. So I think if you find something a voice that resonates

Mobility, Consistency, and Where to Find Deb 35:48

with you just decide, I'm going to commit to that. I'm going to follow that instruction for a while and stick with it, because otherwise you'll be jumping from one thing to the other, and we just don't have that much attention span. We don't have that much energy, and it's kind of taking you out of what you really want to be doing. But I think, you know, the other piece that I would leave somebody with is mobility is going to unlock the door to all of these things, to the strength training for muscle and for bone.

So take good care of your mobility. If you you doesn't have to be yoga, but do some stretching on a regular basis. Your ankles, your hips and your upper back are going to be really important to you as you age. That's great advice. And especially, you know, this finding a voice and listening like that's true in my space and hormones and and some of the ones that scream the loudest are screaming the most nonsense. So it is very true. And this is just the world we live in today. So I can give the doctor still stamp of approval that Deb is a a voice to listen to.

You know, she's just here to help and wise. And so if they want to continue listening to your voice, how should they do that? Well, you can join the flipping 50 at the Stronger Way podcast. You can hear me there, too. I'll whisper in your ear while you're walking or doing your weight training, and you can find me a flipping 50 TV, five zero TV on social media everywhere. And for those of you who want to take a first step, find us at flipping 50. Awesome. Yeah, she's got, you know, something for everyone.

Whether you just want to watch some information or you want to get involved in her community, she provides a lot of value on. I watch you on Instagram. So. But I know you're on YouTube and stuff too, so. But yeah, go check her out. You know, this is such an important piece. If we I always get around it's it's the gluten free, dairy free pizza pie of healing and hormones are super important. If we want to give hormones two pieces, fine. We can do that right there. A big piece of this journey. But if you're putting hormones into a body that's not moving, you're not getting the benefit.

You know, hormones can only take you so far. And so like she was just saying that mobility piece, the strength piece, all of these things are so, so, so so important. We really have to look at healing as a holistic, multifactorial event of how we move through our menopausal transition. So then we can just rock and roll on the other side and not be limited by our physical body. So thank you so much, Deb. I always appreciate talking to you. You know, I always learn something. I always get permission to either, you know, let go of something or invite something in.

So it's very, very beautiful. So thank you for being here and being a part of the summit. And go check her out everyone. And thank you all for being here, being a part of the summit, and we will see you for the next interview. So stay tuned. Bye.