Gut Feelings: Healing The Microbiome-Mind Connection From Shame, Trauma + Other Junk Foods

Introduction and Summit Welcome 0:00

Doctor will call my friend. It's always such a pleasure to see you. See your smile. It's so great. I love interviewing you. I love you interviewing me. We do so much interviews together. We're going to be doing so much together in the future. And you're going to be living down the road from each other one of these days, which is super, super exciting. So welcome to Doctor to doctor. I'm so excited to have you as part of the summit, because you have such incredibly valuable information to share with people that are going to help them with anxiety and depression and mental health and just general mental fitness and physical fitness.

So welcome and thank you. Thanks so much. It's great to see you as always. Wonderful. Well, well, let's just start by you telling our audience what you do, who you are, a brief overview, and then let's dive into the topic of the day. We're going to talk about gut feelings heating the microbiome, mind connection from shame, trauma and other junk foods. Yeah. So it's I'm a functional medicine doctor. So I started the first functional medicine telehealth clinic over 15 years ago. At this point. And my heart, my passion, is people struggling with different chronic health issues, hormone problems, nervous system dysregulation, things like anxiety, depression, brain fog, fatigue, autoimmune problems.

You see a lot of autoimmune inflammation issues. And yes, so those are my people digestive problems. And I have a passion to figure out what are the health. What are the pieces to the health puzzle? How do we get them better? So that's my main day job and we've done that for a long time. We talk to people around the world and we dropship them labs, and we provide them functional medicine, insight and protocols to heal and overcome these health issues. And out of that clinical work, I've written a few books.

I have a podcast called the Art of Being Well, and I get to talk to amazing people like you. And yeah, I just live and breathe this stuff and I never stop thinking about it. And you've touched so many lives with it. And your most recent book that you bought was very much showing the mind body connection. So from your point of view, the first question I'd love to ask you before we dive deep into the microbiome

Gut-Brain Axis and Microbiome Basics 2:06

and which has become such a hot topic in the last couple of years, especially even though you've been talking about it for years, is, you know, how do you see the whole mind and body connection from your point of view? How do you see that working? And it's linked to mental health and anxiety and shame and all these things, trauma and all this kind of thing? Sure. So the gut and brain are formed from the same fetal tissue. So when babies are growing in their mother's womb over those nine months, plus the gut and brain are formed from that same tissue, they're inextricably linked for the rest of our life to what's known in the scientific literature as the gut brain axis, which is the connection axis, the connection between the gut and the brain.

If you think about it, even on a physical, just how it looks standpoint, it's kind of even resemble the brain. We 95% of serotonin are happy neurotransmitters made in the gut. 50% of dopamine is made in the gut, stored in the gut. They work upon these neurotransmitters that are made and stored in the gut. They work upon GI motility, the movement of the gut, and the vagus nerve, which you talk so eloquently about. It's the largest cranial nerve in the body. It's responsible for our parasympathetic, our resting, digesting, grounded, regulated state.

So there's there's the neurotransmitter crosstalk between the gut in the brain through the vagus nerve. That is a component of how the gut influences the brain. The bacterial landscape. It's known collectively as the microbiome. If you break that word down, microbiome the small life. Depending on the study that you cite, we have upwards of 100 trillion bacteria living in our gut. And put that into perspective. We have about 30 trillion human cells, so we are exponentially more bacteria than human.

It's sort of a sophisticated host for the microbiome that we live in. We live symbiotically with it. And it influences many things. And says those neurotransmitters that I mentioned, it influences many different things. It's also where 75% of your immune system is made and in the gut, and the microbiome plays a massive role in that. And inflammation is a product of the immune system. So to understand inflammation you have to look at where the predominance of the immune system resides, which is in the gut.

So there's a whole field of research connected to the brain. There's a field of research called the cytokine model of cognitive function. Cytokines are pro-inflammatory cells. And it's researchers looking at how does inflammation impact how our brain works. How does inflammation impact mental health. And a large part of my work which I this is why we are such good friends about these topics professionally, is that mental health isn't separate from physical health. Mental health is physical health, and we have the physiological and a psychological component to healing.

It's a both and not either or approach. So in functional medicine I have to look at what's going on in the landscape of this gut garden, this microbiome metropolis, and looking at things like opportunistic bacteria and pathogenic bacteria or yeast and fungal overgrowth and something that's called leaky gut syndrome, which things can pass through the gut lining into the bloodstream, which can trigger a cascade of inflammation which can impact many systems in the body, the brain being one of them.

So physiologically, we have to look at these type of things as well as environmental toxins and chronic infections. Other things that can drive inflammation and impact the gut brain axis. But also we have to deal with the mental, emotional, spiritual stuff too, because that those things like chronic stress, unresolved trauma will impact our physiology and raise inflammation just as much as a food that doesn't love us back. So we have to have this. And that's why I called the book Gut Feelings. Looking at both the gut and the feelings and the crosstalk, the bidirectional relationship between the two, because they're such a central part of people's health and how they feel.

And my work. Absolutely. I love how you explain that. So the the hope and feedback loop, the bidirectional emphasis is so important here because our mind is what's keeping us alive and driving everything. So our minds, it's if our mind is a mess, then we're going to have a reaction in our gut microbiome. Our microbiome picks up on that because we're sending the wrong kind of energy through that. That gets messed up, and then that feeds back into the mind. And then you feel worse and this whole thing, and then you add food to that and the wrong food and whatever and whatever, and you get this whole cyclic thing.

So the mind is embodied and we pick that up in the gut brain connection. It's just so great that there's so much more emphasis, even though we've spoken about this for years and thousands of years ago, this was kind of an accepted thing that we had this integration. But it's taken us, you know, we've had 40, 50 years of a very physical focus on just the brain, brain, brain, brain, brain that we've haven't paid enough attention to the kind of work that you do, which is the gut brain. And there's also the hot brain.

The mind is affecting everything. And there's a feedback loop going on. So you do that beautifully and you help you, your patients. Can you maybe share a story of someone who's who battled with anxiety and depression or anxiety or depression or a brain fog or something, where they came to you specifically with that, and that you found

Case Study: Anxiety, Mold, and Gut Dysfunction 7:18

that there was more of us and there was a psychological kind of cause that then created the whole mess with the backdrop to tell us if they can. You think you obviously don't have to share a name, but if you could share maybe an example just to help people understand with the story, it always makes it easier. Yeah for sure. I've so much, so many astounding stories that I've seen and never. Share with us. So I'll give you a behind the scenes view of a typical day in the life. Looks like from me here we have people that come in proverbially come in.

Right? We're talking online virtually, like we're talking now, but they're meeting me online and they're having things like brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, depression, ADHD. They have other neuro inflammatory symptoms and they go to all the specialists. Right. This is but let's think of one person. So a recent patient that I had a similar patients like this. She was in her 30s. She had gone to specialists. She went to mental health special. And she's told what many people are told, like you, this is who you are.

You have anxiety. You have depression. You're always going to have these. Just some people are born this way and take this medication and see you later. And in the medication, she had a sort of a honeymoon period with the medication. Not none of us in functional medicine or anti medication. We just want to ask the question, okay, what's your most effective option that causes you the least amount of side effects. And if somebody does medications in the short term to get their head above water and survive, some people are alive because of medication.

So certainly this is a nuanced conversation. But this person knew intuitively something's not right here. Like, yeah, maybe I'm a bit better, or maybe it worked for a time, but now it doesn't work anymore. But I know I don't have this problem from a medication deficiency. So what's actually in my body telling me? In a functional medicine we say you see these things like anxiety, depression, brain fog, fatigue, other symptoms as check engine light, what's underneath the proverbial hood that's misfiring, a dysfunctional imbalance that's causing these issues.

So we starts with the most unsexy part of health care. It's a it's a comprehensive health history. Right. It's just asking lots of questions. But it's like being a sleuth and figuring out what problem solved. Let's be not basic. Let's gets really be thoughtful and hold space for these complex health issues that have answers. If you give them the thoughtfulness that they deserve and the due diligence they deserve. So we're asking things that normally don't get asked. We're spending at least over an hour with people.

Initially, I had one older gentleman tell me years ago when I asked him all these questions, he said, are you in the KGB? Because I, I'm not in the KGB. Yes, I did know. The KGB as in kind guts. Ballot got even like, there you go. That KGB convicted you got a new name did. But that was kind of the KGB kind brain. What did KGB can't get? Brain. There you go. Yeah, that's in the KGB. This guy isn't exactly. So we. The health history tells us what labs need to be ran like. What are the stones that are most likely to have something underneath it?

So the things we find on these type labs and thinking about that, that patient is that she's in her 30s, she's dealing with these issues. She was dealing with things like mold, toxins. Some people are more sensitive the mold than others. So this is a problem for everybody. But she had specific gene variants. And again we need to look at genetics and epigenetics. Like how what's your own bio individuality. We're all created differently. So we're able to look at your unique interplay or interaction with your environment and life itself.

So she would have high levels of molds like black mold in her body. She had methylation and HLA gene variants, which just means her body wasn't good at detoxing and handling the mold toxins. And the mold was decreasing. Something called the migrating motor complex, which has to do with the vagus nerve. So she had poor vagal tone and that migrating motor complex slowed down her activity, which caused a lot of bacterial overgrowth and yeast and fungal overgrowth, something called Sibo. And if you look at it's an acronym, Sybil, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth causes things like bloating and digestion.

IBS or irritable bowel syndrome. And she had chronic GI issues. And whereas majority of your immune system it's in your gut. So that was impacting this sort of larger autoimmune inflammation issue she had. She knows her autoimmune thyroid issues. She goes to a specialist conventional model as well intentioned and lovely as they may be. They're telling her you're they basically make you feel like you're crazy. There's a lot of medical gaslighting. Yeah. That's terrible. And the person labeled with things like, oh no, you have anxiety, you have depression, you have a thyroid issue.

Here's the thyroid medication again. It's diagnosing a disease and matching it with the corresponding medication. It's of medicinal. Yeah. But it's just scratching the surface. So that's just one aspect of it. But look it's beyond just looking at problems. Then it's like how do we heal from this. And that's where we really lean in in functional medicine, from a multi-pronged approach to start to heal. Now she's doing amazing. She's reclaimed her life and so many people are cut back to the living from living the life they were created for, because they're just medically gaslit.

And there's not a lot of information and education and empowerment about this information. But and you have to know what you're dealing with to do something about it. I love that you explained about the medical gaslighting, and I know not every doctor does this. You know, to give you doctor with the same brush, but it is the training that's received. And I've trained so many physicians, as have you, and interviewed them. And it is true that these days there's so many physicians and I say this is just not the answer.

You just have one way. And it's so true that, I mean, like for example, if someone is put on an antidepressant, I mean, what does that do to the gut microbiome? Do the doctors even tell them that, you know, you put something in that's doing all kinds of things to your brain and your gut microbiome and other parts of your body and your immune system and so on. When you're not doing something to counter that. And so you're putting people on to something that that's the academic aspect of the whole medical gaslighting issue.

And you say something else. So valid. You people on the people, then you almost have to self educate. I mean it's become a situation with people are having. That's why we do these interviews. That's why we're doing the same. And that's why I have my podcast and you have your podcast and write these books so that we can make people aware. Obviously, they don't need to know all the detail that you know, but they need to know enough to say, recognize I'm being medically gaslit. I'm getting giving you something that's actually making me feel worse once the honeymoon period is over, what can I do?

Healing Through Lifestyle and Nervous System Support 14:05

So coming back to your lady that that you mentioned this patient in her 30s who's reclaimed her life now. So you did. This was a puzzle. Like a puzzle that you're building and you're finding all the pieces and putting it together. Well, what aspect how did you help her in terms of the sort of mental health side? Because obviously the physical played hugely into her mental health once because our body's feeding back into our brain, but it's our mind that's driving the body. How do you reconcile advise or help and on the psychological side as well?

Yeah. So we have to have both and approach here. If you look at what the symbolism of the gut and the feelings, the physical and the mental, emotional, spiritual, physical side of things that impact mental health or things like working on gut health. So taking us through, taking out foods that didn't love her back right now as she improves gut health and gut resilience, that list of foods that love her back will grow as she improves gut absorption and digestion and calm inflammation levels in the body.

So we we crafted and formulated clinical nutrition protocol. It really was centric on gut healing and calming inflammation. And from a mind body side of things like the feelings side of stuff, we bring in things like breathwork and somatic practices and meditation and grounding practices and just I, I call something about a tool within the toolbox here, the telehealth, kind of like that we call Jomo the Joy of Missing Out, which is kind of the antithesis of this FOMO fear of missing out culture with social media and being hyper scheduled.

So we actually prescribe patients saying no and letting no be a multi body them in and simplifying their life however they can. Everybody has different access and abilities, and I think that's the largest. The therapy, if you will, is bringing a grace and bringing a lightness into all of this stuff. Because when you talk about chronic stress and unresolved trauma, there has to be grace around this. You can't just tell someone or don't be stressed anymore because then they stress about not stress, and they know stress isn't good for them.

But how do you even deal with that? So really, bringing in these acts of stillness and treating how bringing in all of these practices with self-compassion and treating things like breathwork and meditation and grounding practices or trauma release as what I call metaphysical meals, like these things that are therapeutic and information for your physiology, for your biochemistry. Just as much as food and nutrition is information for your gut, biochemistry. So we have to what are the most effective tools within their toolbox?

And then what's something that's not going to stress them out? Because stressing about your health isn't good for your health. So sometimes less is more. Sometimes it's just being consistent with the simple things and not adding in the next thing. More isn't always better when it comes to these things, and that's the duality of what I get to do. There's the science, and then there's the art. And the science is all great in theory, but how does it translate into somebody's life? Because all of this has to be realistic and practical and sustainable and a source of joy.

It doesn't mean it's always going to be easy, but it's something that they can find a rhythm to it. They can find an intuitive second nature aspect to it, which is beautiful to see. It doesn't happen overnight, so I don't want to gloss over that, but that as you build habits, as you get to love your body back in this unique way, it's really powerful to see people reclaim their birthright, their power in their health. Beautiful. It's so it's almost like I'm this in tune. I'm thinking of the other driving through a snowstorm or something, and how we have to put our own windscreen wipers on, what we can't see.

So if you're going through all these things in life, there's no one who's exempt from the challenges of life. Is the day to day struggles? Is the big stuff. These bad habits we've developed, we as humans, that's just part of our psyche and our busyness of life. It just becomes the windscreen wiper. Just the snow just keeps coming down. And if we do that then affects our body and nobody gets into the state and then that makes it even worse. So I kind of see what you doing as helping people to just, you know, get that windscreen wiper on. Let's just get your body.

Let's just get your body in a place where you can actually see things, and then you can start calming down and relaxing, and that shows you more. And then you can actually then dive into the heavy stuff and obviously then that, you know, the therapy and those kinds of things. And but if you just in the snowstorm, you don't know where to begin. And so you're helping people get to the snow storm. When the body's dysregulated, it's it's hard to hear that still small voice of your intuition. Yeah. No.

Because is it what is it? There's so much dysregulation. It's like you said, that snowstorm. But when you calm things down, it's not only the windshield, but actually, it's like the old hermetic phrase of as above, as with it. And so it out. You can create actually a lot of external clarity too, and really have to have better discernment on what's serving you and what's not serving you, because so many people are caught up in sort of this cyclical dysfunction. And then we're not even even talking about the science around intergenerational or transgenerational trauma.

A lot of this stuff can happen between family lines through ancestors. So it is something that, as you know, when you know what you're dealing with, you can do something about it on all levels. And that's fantastic. It's wonderful. A quick question and then we'll do it. Then we'll I'll let you go, because you've been so generous with your time and your and your knowledge too. Couple of questions, if I just could. Two more questions. We mentioned briefly about taking medications and how they can disrupt your microbiome and stuff.

Can you just explain a little bit to maybe in terms of like psychiatric medications or quite strong medications, what sort of things that they do, and what is something that people could immediately start doing now if they own something and they want to start just helping their body to counter those effects. Could you talk a little bit to that specifically around psychiatric mates? Sure. So obviously the preface for all of this is that don't come off of any medications without talking with. Absolutely, absolutely with your. Doctor.

I am a super fan and advocate, a passionate advocate for informed consent. And so I want to have the benefits. And one of the relative risks are these small or big risks. And then how are those how is that medication impacting your biochemistry, which is going to be different from person to person, let alone if there's several medications involved? And how is that sort of combination of things impacting your biochemistry?

Medication Effects and Inflammatory Foods 20:28

So these are things that I mean, as a functional medicine doctor, I'll advocate with telehealth patients with their prescribing doctor, I'll get on a virtual call like that to kind of be their wellness quarterback, if you will, and I put all the pieces together because they may need those medications while they heal or indefinitely. But for many people, you know, if they do or have any side effects from medications and there's many studies or showing to a SSRI the specific class of medications that's the most sleep like when you talk about mental health, it's the most prescribed fasting medication.

So your typical antidepressant necessary for sure was that it works about the same as a placebo. And that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Placebo is not a bad think. Placebo is showing you that it's the mind. The mind, right? The power of suggestion. It's a power of intention. So there are other studies that show the anti-depressants. And now I'm talking about people that have mild to moderate depression, not severe cases. Studies show studies show that from mild to moderate depression, it works about the same as as a placebo.

But there's other studies that show that antidepressants may help be helping people, not by impacting serotonin as much as acting as a mild anti-inflammatory. So could that be where people do see benefits? Yes, it could be placebo, but also, is it lowering inflammation level. And then when you look at the research of this sort of cytokine model of how the brain works, what are ways we can do to bring inflammation levels down? So if I would say if want to say some action steps, I would look at what I would call the inflammatory core for these are four ingredients.

Or instead of is likely to cause inflammation and impact that gut brain axis. Number one would be gluten containing grains. And there's a very nuanced conversation about that. Not all is that same. We've done a lot of hybridize a things on wheat and crossbreed it and then bleach it properly prepare it. It's not fermented. There's lots of things. So I'm not making broad sweeping statements here, but I would say find it looking at gluten raw and impacting inflammation and perpetuating leaky gut syndrome.

And there's a lot is evidence to show that not just in celiac patients, but this larger inflammation spectrum. Number two would be dairy. I I'm a fan of good quality dairy. I think a good grass fed A2 fermented dairies can be wonderful sheep cheeses. Goat cheeses. There's there's wonderful yeah, nutrients in these foods. But most Americans are just having average marginal pasteurized milk that's not grass fed. And third would be industrial seed oils. I'm not a I think there's a nuanced conversation about that too.

I don't make broad sweeping, but things like canola oil, vegetable oils, soybean oil, it's the overconsumption of them in packaged foods. The modern Western diet is very high in omega six and very low in omega threes. So we need proper ratios and increasing long chain omega three is in decreasing the amount of omega six has got to be pretty measured in moderate advice and good advice for most people. And number four is going to be sugar, which most people know that already. But even the nicer sounding euphemisms for sugar.

There's a lot of greenwashing when it comes to sugar. When you look at things like agave nectar, it just looks so natural, like the manufacturers just squeezing the it into a cup and it looks so green and so healthy. But the reality is it's still refined sugar. It's not it's no fiber. And and when you're talking about added sugar and that's going to impact your glycemic index and glucose. So that's sort of my thoughts. If people decrease that or it's going to be a lot better, the gut rate axis and inflammation levels will be a lot better.

If I had to add a plus one to that inflammatory score for the alcohol, the research is clear. There's the healthiest alcohol is done. So if you're dealing with gut brain access issues, mental health issues, I really would look at alcohol's role. Is it serving you or sabotaging you and have sort of a come to Jesus moment about that? Because I think that there's there's things that people don't want to look at, and they may not be a full blown alcoholic, but they may be using as a way to distract and numb themselves from the present moment.

Which food will also do that? People will also use food in that way, too. So those are some practical if you're on medication or not a medication. Some things you could do to start moving your biochemistry in a positive way. Right? So if I hear from the summary, a sort of summary of that, psych mates will and I have a very because just because of the nature, they do deplete the brain, they do create information. So I know they tried to help people, but they do create information. They do damage the brain. They do damage the body.

So by duping by the tips that you've given, those and by being aware of those other pro-inflammatory foods food groups, it can also cause problems. You could be careful of those. You can strengthen your own body so that and then what is a. So that's the first point. The secrets are. The last question I have for you is, is this something that people could to those that the food groups you've just explained? That's what people need to be careful of because that can add to the problem. What can people do to build up and counter the damage that is happening from that?

We do know that happens from psychiatric mates to your mate. What's the groups? Because it's going to make it even worse. The way you explain it, pro-inflammatory the the sugars and so on, alcohol, etc.. Brilliant advice, but is this something that people can add to their diet that can actually help to counter the damage that is being done by by medications? Yeah. So number one I mean look and they're like focusing actually. What are all the yummy, delicious foods that do love you back versus all the things you quote unquote can't add?

Because the reality is you can have whatever you want. I want people to shift their whole Paris paradigm, not around a list of do's and don'ts, but really have a conversation, healthy boundaries with yourself, and look at foods and relationship with avoiding something that doesn't love you back. Is it restrictive? It's self respect and we need to start shifting our perspective around food. So foods that love people back more often and this bio individuality with this. But this slide is we want to get on the conversation here.

This flight what looks like it looks like you're just using your hands very vigorously like an Italian. Why don't we use my hands like that as well? And before you dive in, before you complete this question, I'm so glad you've taken it from this way, because it's it's a great answer if you if you if your body's been depleted of something. What Will's about to explain is basically that if we learn to listen to our bodies and we learn to eat the foods that you love, focusing on not do's and don'ts, but your body will tell you what you need to heal.

Damage that's been done by bad foods and by medications and all that kind of stuff. And mine is actually by eating the foods you love, you can help to start restoring.

Food as Medicine and Practical Healing Strategies 27:28

So I just wanted to set that up. But it's a great way to end, great way to end the podcast. So let's hear some great advice here. Now of course. So look for used food as medicine and a medication. So we do use it as a mindfulness practice. How does that food impact your energy, your sleep, your digestion, your brain your focus throughout the day your mood so macronutrients, proteins, fats and carbs. Let's look at each one of them. And foods are going to have a combination. Many foods. We have a combination of these macronutrients.

These are the big fuel sources of your food as medicine. So protein I want to at least 100g of protein a day. So it's about 30 ish grams per meal. And we're talking about complete protein which is good for your brain. It's because it helps to regulate your blood sugar and to help increase satiety. So you can feel fuller, longer and more balanced because your glucose, your blood sugar is balanced. So things like wild caught fish, low mercury, good quality, high nutrient dense fatty fish, things like wild caught salmon, sardines, anchovies.

This whole list of fish that are tested from brands that are reputable. So you're getting clean sources that are low in heavy metals because our oceans, I mean, and environmentally, there's a larger conversation of how as above, so below there too. Right? I mean, we are a microcosm of nature and part of nature, but we're doing the best we can and giving the rest to God. We're going to get wild, cut fish. I brands that I test for me metals and forever chemicals and microplastics, which is many out there that do that.

So that's going to provide good omega fatty acids as well as high quality protein, but also grass fed beef, wonderful nutrient dense foods and should not be feared rich with things like vitamin A and B12 and full eggs in these healthy conjugated linoleic acid, these healthy fatty acids that are not in a lot of the foods, organ meats, which a lot of people don't like, but you can even mask them. And regular meat, really is one of nature's multivitamins that anyone that's looking to support brain health, we're telehealth patients.

Were banning them to bring in an organ means a few days a week. So things like grass fed liver. And again, you could do ground, grass fed liver and about a third of that, and then do two thirds your regular ground beef and make sort of a burger patty or chili or a soup or something, but mask and dilute it and other sources. You can do plant based proteins as well if you tolerate them from a digestive standpoint, healthy fats are going to be think extra virgin olive oil, avocados, nuts and seeds.

Tolerate them from a digestive standpoint. And then lots of fruits like do not fear fruits, fruits are not bad. There are some people that have more insulin resistance that maybe should limit fruits for a time, but certainly they are filled with wonderful nutrients, antioxidants, polyphenols that I want people to enjoy it, and vegetables as well. If you have digestive problems, if you're in fact, if you really want the most therapeutic form of focusing on soups and stews, think of them as like a proverbial siesta for your gut, because you kind of take in a lot of the work of digesting and made it more easy to assimilate and digest and absorb.

So that old cliche chicken soup, when you're sick, it's not the noodles that are making people healthy, it's the fact that the broth and the soups and stews, like vegetables, are cooked down deep in pure, and the meat is soft and easy to digest. It is a food as medicine tool that are, again, like you said, thousands of years people knew this stuff that really science is just catching up with antiquity. That this sort of old world tool of soups and stews can be really healing is cathartic. And then from there, like different supplements can be really helpful.

Like, I love saffron and the research on saffron when it comes to our I love adaptogens and the research of things like ashwagandha, Rhodiola, and functional mushrooms like lion's mane and Chara. These are supplements that we put in to protocols to, and people can start to learn educate themselves about. Amazing. That's a great answer. Thank you so much. Well, how can people find you, get hold of you and get help from you? Yeah. Thank you so much. Everything's that doctor Will Qualcomm that's Dr..

Will call us dot com on Instagram at doctor up call. My podcast is called the art of being well. But they'll they'll find me in all those places. Perfect. Thank you so much. Well thank you for your wisdom and your insight. It's been amazing. And as usual, I always learn so much when I talk to you. So thank you all. Likewise. Nice to see you.