“Not Tonight, Dear” – Never Again Be Too Tired

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Thank you so much for having me. It’s wonderful to be here having this chat with you today.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Same here. Let’s introduce ourselves. Let’s let everybody know who you are and how you got into this work. We talked offline about how much you work with chronic fatigue in your practice. I’ve dabbled in a little bit about the links you’ve seen with some of these complicated chronic fatigue cases and how libido and sexual dysfunction oftentimes are tied into that. Can you just tell us a little bit about your history? Why do you love talking about this? Why is this such a passionate topic for you?

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Sure. My understanding of the importance of sexual health goes way back to when I was five years old and my parents were teaching these human sexuality courses in this very conservative small town. My dad was a minister at a church, and they were having these conversations with married couples. I remember, of course, that I had no clue what they were talking about, but there was something about that being understood and how important that was as a child. And then it grew into something that may sound strange, but as a teenager, I found some of the books that they were reading, and I scientifically read them. What is the female orgasm? What happens when you have an orgasm? For a teenager that wasn’t sexually active yet, this is back in the day when, in the sexual health classes, there were these very stiff nurses in their little hats saying, Here’s this big, huge blanket you need to stick on in your underwear when you have a period. There was no like; talk about female power, orgasm, and stuff in those classes. that allowed me, I believe, to have a healthier sexual life. Then I started when I had chronic fatigue. I noticed that there were huge dips and valleys when I was going through my healing crisis, and I had issues with fertility and all kinds of things. There were a lot of times when I was not able to access that part of myself.

When I start working with my patients, we’re dealing with deep, complex, chronic illnesses, and we’re working through the layers of what they need to do to heal their bodies. There comes a point when we’re talking about libido. Libido can be a great marker of how much energy you have. I ask it in every visit with my patients to see how their libido is so that we can see if they are improving or not. When we start getting to the layers where their energy is coming back and the libido still isn’t, it’s often because there’s a deeper issue there. The reason I’m so passionate about this is that I feel like we need to talk about it more. I believe we need to talk about sex. We need to talk about sex. When you talk about money, we need to talk about sex. Someday, I hope we can talk about politics again. We can learn from each other about how it is to be healthier and this very vital, important piece of life.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes. Thank you for that. It’s something that we both talked about on a soapbox-like level. Why do we talk in functional medicine about testing, sleep, diet, and all of these things? Yet there’s a fundamental component in our sexual life that is part of our vitality and part of our well-being that we’re not talking about. You led us into a good, lead-in topic before we get into some of the deeper conversations we’re going to have around the mind, around the subconscious, with all these different things—self-esteem, all these different things that are related to our sexuality. Stay tuned for that, everybody. But before we get there, let’s just set the stage and define, like, what do you think normal libido is? How do people understand? Are they normal? Are they not normal? It’s something I hear come up so much for people with this topic.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes, I love that question, and I’d be interested in what you think it is as well. If we want to have an actual conversation about this, my experience is that it comes out of a story that I had when I was a clinician years and years ago, and Tori Hudson, our gynecology teacher, talked about a patient who came in, and she kept complaining about having low libido. Finally, one of the student interns said, “Well, what do you mean, low libido?” She said, “Oh, well, I only want to have sex three times a day, but my boyfriend wants to have it six times a day,” which is a huge aha to me as a medical student. It’s relative to what you originally had. When I’m talking with somebody with chronic illness, if they used to have a great, strong libido and then they don’t, that’s a change, and that’s significant. We need to talk about why, if you’ve never had a libido and that’s not an issue for you in your life, you put your energy elsewhere, then that’s fine. That’s normal for you. Does that make sense? I think there is no normal. Your normal is what it is, what it is for you, and what it is that you want and need in your life to have a healthy, happy life.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes, we share this in common; it’s like the libido. There’s no low-libido diagnosis. It’s a hypoactive sexual desire disorder. It’s like a medical diagnosis. Hypoactive sexual desire disorder, technically. That says that you have had a low sexual desire for six months, and then you get this label. Then, in my mind, it brings us back to exactly what you said. Well, like, low compared to what? Even medically speaking, we’re saying, well, it has to be low for six months, but it’s not even defined as why. So you and I share this, like the definition of normal. The way I like to describe it is if you feel like once you learn about all the different things in life that a healthy sexual life can bring to balance—all these things we’re talking about throughout the summit—energy and sleep, mental health, connection and relationships, and more—you feel like you need those things. If you feel like you’re in a relationship with somebody or yourself and you feel like your relationship with yourself or others could be improved with sexuality, say, up-leveling, if any of those things are true, then you probably have a low libido. That’s how I look at it.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes, that’s brilliant. that’s great.  I always come to mind, as the other second question I always ask people is, Is this an issue for you in your relationship? Is it whatever your libido is? Because obviously, it’s great if you are in a committed, long-term relationship. It’s great if the libidos are matched. It works a lot better.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes, it’s very true. That’s where it comes into that uniqueness. It’s an area where there’s extreme uniqueness. For some people, normal might be, and healthy might be once a day, or twice a day. Right now, there’s another couple or another individual. It might be once a month. It can be so varied.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

I have a couple who are very happily married. They have sex once or twice a year, and they are both so happy with that. That’s perfect. They have a fantastic relationship. It’s all they need.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes, exactly. We’re on the same page with this. I love it. Let’s get some of the fun studies because you added that it was to me when we were talking about; if you do it, we talk about a few different studies. I love reading these studies on sexuality, sex drive, and sexual dysfunction because there are way more studies when we dove into the research on this topic than are being talked about, which is amazing. Let’s talk about the difference between women and men. I love the study that you brought up about women being turned on by just about everything. Let me start in the lead and talk about that research.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes. There was some research done about a decade ago looking at how women and men are turned on. This woman, the researcher, played lots of different videos and had men and women—some gay, some straight, some transgender—all different kinds of people in relationships, not in relationships. She stuck these probes in all of them. They put a probe up into the vagina to check for lubrication and also for increased swelling and increased vascularization; they had one on the penis for the males; they had them hooked up to all these different machines; and they had them watch the videos. While they were watching the videos, they were supposed to make comments or mark them down when they felt aroused or attracted. So it was so interesting because the men, both straight and gay, were in alignment with their brains and their bodies, as in when they saw movies that they thought made them horny. They wrote it down. Yes, this makes me horny. Indeed, that’s what was happening with their bodies. When they saw movies that they didn’t find arousing, they said, No, I don’t. That was exactly what it was. When it came to the women, it was like this complete disconnect between their brains and their bodies, because the women were turned on by everything, like baboons having sex. like literally everything. These women were constantly turned on, but they didn’t think they were. When they marked down the paper, they didn’t think that they were attracted by it, which I just find so fascinating.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes. Then that brings us to the conversation, and that is a big conversation of our interview today around, so in this example, like, what is going on with the mind, like, how much does the mind play a role in our sex and our sexuality? What is going on subconsciously? Where are we having subconscious triggers and turning on and off all these different things? We can even start this conversation if you want by going back to naturopathic principles. Since you and I are both naturopathic doctors around, okay, this isn’t just the body. We’re talking about naturopathic medicine like mind, body, spirit, and these pillars. Do you want to start by explaining a little bit about how the mind and the subconscious work and how that pillar is tied in with the concept of sexual dysfunction?

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes, sure. As you said, in naturopathic medicine, we were always taught there’s the physical body, the mental-emotional body, and then the spiritually energetic body. We’re getting more and more science now showing that that is true—that there is this energy body that we have and how much that influences what happens in our lives. That’s like energy being emitted out there and energy being emitted to ourselves. So, yes, we see huge shifts when people begin to shift their energetic bodies. We have a conscious mind and a subconscious mind. The conscious mind is only 5%. of our thoughts are conscious; the rest are subconscious. That subconscious mind isn’t just up here; it’s in the body.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Thank you.  Let’s go even deeper with that around what happens because, for women in particular, it gets rooted in the mind around some of these subconscious things, like safety. It’s a big one, so are there others and I and that’s why I see safety in my work as being one of the primary subconscious types of scenarios, and this can be right like physical safety. But it can also be just emotional safety or mental safety. There can be different layers of safety. From a subconscious standpoint, can we go deeper into safety and how that should show up in ways that maybe women in particular in this topic are not as oriented? We’re oriented to, okay, somebody who is physically abusive; we’re not safe. But that’s what we’re talking about? That’s like a problem; that problem needs to be resolved in a very safe way, usually with the help of a lot of other people. But what areas of safety from a subconscious perspective are people not thinking about that could be subconsciously impacting their mind and their sexuality? Then, besides safety, are there any other, like if we could put together, say, a constructive like these are the top areas where these are the top safe frames like safety? These are the top, say, ways that people think their subconscious mind is driving them besides safety. Are there other types of major words that people should be looking for, like fear? I guess that would be a better way of approaching that.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes. There are a couple of things that come up when you ask that question. When somebody has safety issues that aren’t like the ones you would initially go talk to, a couple of things come up. One is a story about a patient who had a huge trauma when she was young. It wasn’t a sexual trauma. It was a physical trauma. She felt bad, and she hurt her tailbone badly in that fall. That fall was also layered in with the stress of what was happening in her family at that time. It wasn’t an easy time for her family at that time. that layered in, she’s one of those people who was having sexual dysfunction. Once we got through the layers of working with her chronic fatigue and getting her energy back up, she finally had the energy to begin to look at this. She had insomnia. She was in a beautiful relationship with somebody who was wonderful, emotionally responsive, and everything, but she was not able to have a proper sexual relationship, one that she wanted.

In terms of your words, her libido was low; she wanted more. It was when she started that we did actual subconscious work to heal that injury, that inner child, and to become aware. When she did some pelvic work, she was able to come back into her body and start to feel safe. Her subconscious mind had linked this trauma, this physical pain, along with the emotional dysfunction in the family at that moment, down into that center where her sexual power is, and she was blocked from experiencing that. That was a subconscious form of saying, I’m not safe. I’m not safe down there. Every time she’s down there and she’s thinking about having sex or there’s any stimulation, it triggers that memory, that pathway to her little girl when she was little and hurt. So that’s what was getting triggered. Once she became conscious of that and was able to work through it, she could become her adult self and begin to come back to enjoying having that sexual activity again. But it’s interesting when you talk about safety because that’s like the worst thing that can happen to us. One of the worst things that can happen to us as people is being rejected and sent into exile.

That’s why that was such a horrendous thing to happen in medieval times. They either drew it, quartered you, or made you an exile. They kicked you out. We have this fear of not being part of the community. A lot of us have this fear of being rejected. There’s nothing more vulnerable than having sex with someone else. It’s a very intimate time and place. So it’s about, do you feel okay with who you are? Do you accept yourself? Do you love yourself enough to know that that’s all you need, and therefore it’s okay and safe for you to be vulnerable with this other person? I think that the safety piece that sometimes people don’t think about is that it can even be those subconscious negative voices that are telling us that we are not okay. Our bodies aren’t okay. We’re too fat, and we’re too skinny. The breasts are too big. They’re too small. I’m too old. I’m too young. I don’t have enough money—too much money, whatever. It’s like these stories that we tell ourselves, and when we dive back into the research around women and sexuality, there’s this whole theory out there about how women are turned on when they’re desired.

I find that to be a patriarchal overlay because there’s some truth in that. The truth is that women are empowered by their sexual power. They feel safe expressing their power through their sexuality. When we feel good about who we are in ourselves and our bones, oftentimes, the important step is to heal any of the subconscious beliefs and traumas there. to be able to come in and be willing and enjoy when you’re expressing that part of yourself with someone else.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

You just had so many great things in that, but I want to comment on, and the first thing that I just want to comment on, just because it’s important for people that have heard you talk about pelvic floor issues, I want to also bring up that I knew these are another physical type of trauma that a lot of people don’t connect from a subconscious standpoint around. Getting an IUD put in is not a pleasurable thing for some women; it’s a great way of using birth control. For other women, it is traumatic, and they’re not prepared for it. I’ve seen people where they like; I imagine you have where it’s like they get an IUD in and it’s like last for a couple days and the pain is so bad it has to come out. These are traumas that go unnoticed, and they’re not always thought to be connected to sexual dysfunction. But since you brought the pelvic floor, there is something to throw in there. then another thing again.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes, I would agree. It was interesting. I had to have an endometrial biopsy a few months ago; it was the first one I’ve ever had, and having given them, it was interesting to be on the other side. It was a very painful procedure. What was fascinating was how much it threw me back into the trauma and experience of miscarriage, which I’ve had three of. Even though I’ve done a lot of healing work, that was fascinating to me, and I was almost grateful to have this opportunity to do another level of healing that I wouldn’t have been aware of had I not had that trauma. But it is interesting to see how much is held down there. Also, sometimes with chronic infections, the body can be too low-grade to even have symptoms, but you can have a low-grade vaginal vault infection that can trigger that vagus nerve. Like I’m not safe. It’s not okay. Something’s not okay.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes, exactly. The floor on a normal vaginal floor is just a little bit off. It’s not showing up on lab tests, and you test, and you’re like, I know something’s wrong, but the lab tests are fine. Well, it’s probably something like this. It’s great what you said together and led us into the next part of our conversation, which is what you’re saying around. You had said you were talking about relationships. One of the things I wanted to comment on is that while sexuality can sometimes be a barometer of relationships, something you said around, hey, we were looking at this as being like something like, okay, relationships, good and healthy were having sex, but also what you mentioned around how we’re feeling about ourselves. It’s also a barometer of our internal self-esteem, our internal body, and anybody shame we’re holding. since you brought up this component of this recent situation with yourself and Endo and all of that, and we see this tissue.

We know tissue can hold frequencies and patterns that you mentioned offline in the statement like the body doesn’t lie. It’s like we have all of this dysfunction, say, from a standpoint of things not working that we can find physically and lab tests that all of these sorts of things. But there’s also this component of energy, and we can have this energetic memory, this imprint of the idea of pelvic trauma, of safety. This can even take us back to childhood. It can be something that maybe was said by a parent or teacher in passing that in our adult life we might be able to pass off as like, okay, that person’s having a bad day, no big deal with the child in us in those moments, even though the adults have heard the same thing, might be like, okay, that person’s just having a bad day. The child sometimes doesn’t know, and sometimes that gets held in all different parts of our body. Can we talk about that? Because from a subconscious standpoint, no, we’re talking about the traumas of emotional or physical safety or pelvic floor dysfunction. Where does subconscious memory come from? Maybe things like those I’m talking about from early in our lives, but even if you’re open to going here, like past generations and those sorts of imprints, can you talk about how that plays into all of this?

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

The subconscious mind holds those imprints from everything that you ever heard, felt, or experienced, from in utero to presence. If mom was stressed out or having anxiety, you may have linked that feeling of anxiety to something else. Yes, we have generational trauma. That’s a real thing. Your pelvic dysfunction may not even be about what’s happening to you in this lifetime. It may be something that happened to great-grandma. that can be something that can be transferred through. I also know that this becomes one of those things that depends on what your orientation is. But I believe that there’s a soul journey imprint that we have and that that can also be part of what’s in there as well.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

I want to make sure because I feel like we’re opening a big, fun, juicy bag of personal development to dive into here. If anybody is listening to this and you’re remembering a trauma like that, it’s always something to make sure you’re working with somebody that’s truly qualified that can help you go through processing those traumas so that you don’t have that thing that happens where you almost relive that experience. We want to be very careful about that. If you’re having that come up, just to make this obvious, get help working with somebody who’s very, very trained in how to support you through your healing process. But besides that, some of these things we’re talking about are not acute traumas like rape, sexual assault, or these sorts of things. They’re more just these other types of traumas like you were talking about the pelvic floor thing, the surgeries, the safety, the small levels of not hearing things emotionally correct the soldier, or anything like you mentioned. If somebody is on that path and they have those traumas, what are some things from an actionable standpoint? How do people begin to look at that, and how do they even know that this could be an issue for them?

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes, it’s a great question. The main thing is to begin to look at what you are noticing in your life—what are you noticing in terms of your sexuality? As you mentioned, the body never lies. What is your body saying to you? Some of the signs that I see in the clinic that let me know that maybe there’s something deeper to look at here are sleep issues, because that’s a time when we are also vulnerable and letting go. Are we having a trust issue with letting ourselves go to sleep? There can be a subconscious thing happening here. Then what happens around intimacy for you? Is it something where you are either not able to feel desire? Especially if you’re a woman. We already know scientifically that we’re turned on by everything. If you’re not feeling that, then there’s some gate inside your brain that’s saying, “Shove that away, push it away. No, we’re not going there.” We don’t know. It could be a cultural overlay, just from our general culture; it could be a religious cultural overlay; it could be all different kinds of things. beginning to look at that, and again, as you said, often we take this stuff in when we’re little and our brain hasn’t even separated the subconscious from the conscious mind.

That doesn’t happen till you’re five or six. It’s like we’re little sponges, and we think that’s true. We think everything is real. That comes in that way. Those are signs if you seem to have shame or guilt around sex—either the desire to have sex or the masturbating self-pleasure of having sex with your partner. There’s a feeling of not feeling okay afterward. Dirtiness or shame—those are flags, and those may be flecks of something that can be a flag of sexual trauma. So, as you so well said, I highly recommend that you work with a trauma-informed therapist. If you feel like you’ve got any of those things going on or disassociating people that are like anything around their bodies or sex, as they may be like the super great party girl or whatever, but they’re not here, that can also be a sign of disassociation, which again can be a sign of something not feeling safe. This is your way of handling it.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes, that’s all great. There’s some level to which I feel like that can happen when people are having sex, and I see this happen a lot more in estrogen-dominant humans than in testosterone-dominant humans, where the mind can wander. Because there’s this evolutionary thing. Allison Armstrong is the guru; she talks about this a lot, where the mind is just the estrogen on the brain, which makes the mind a lot more diffusely aware. You’re like walking into a room; you’re like that pillow out of place. I have to do that, and, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t finish the dishes.” With the estrogen that can sometimes be in sex and intimate moments, the mind can sometimes have more of a tendency to wonder, to be like, “Oh, I need to make the grocery lists.” But what I’m trying to differentiate is that there’s an element where it’s like, Oh, there’s that practice, like with meditation, like, “Holy cow, can my mind wander? “I’m back in my body versus, like, not with, versus, like, what you’re talking about here with disassociation, where it’s like, you’re doing this act and going through it, and we’re not like that in our body at all.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes, exactly.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Okay. Perfect. Then also in thinking about self-esteem, which is a huge relationship for people when we’re talking about the mind, and I see this as a vicious cycle that comes up in research where it’s like it’s a healthy sexual life. Some studies show that sexual intimacy will improve self-esteem, but then we don’t have very good self-esteem and we don’t have a very good body image, like how many of us want to take off our clothes and show them to a lover. and then it’s like that vicious cycle. Then we’re not engaged intimately, and that can further undermine self-esteem. We get into a vicious cycle. Do you want to talk about that? Do you have any thoughts for people on how much self-esteem is wrapped up in this, this mind, and the subconscious, as well as what people can do to start unraveling this cycle?

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

I do think self-esteem is tied up with sexuality for sure, and I want to be careful about how I talk about what self-esteem is because there’s false self-esteem where we’re building ourselves up, and that can be important in certain places. I have a presentation in front of this board, and I need to be bigger than I’m feeling right now. I need to fake it till I make it. You do your power pose, and you go in there and do your thing, even though you feel scared inside. That’s why it has its place. I truly believe that for that sexual relationship that we all want, it’s a different self-esteem.

It’s called self-love. That’s what it is. That’s what I’m talking about. It’s not building yourself up. It’s truly being okay in your skin for who you are. I know that that can be challenging because we have so many things that we’re always comparing ourselves to that make us feel like we’re not good enough. My invitation to those who are listening is to think of the times. What is it that you do in your life when you don’t care how you look? For me, it’s dancing. Like when I’m dancing, I couldn’t care less. I could care less about what I look like, how old I am, or anything else. If I’m out in nature, if I’m anything on the water, on the water, in the water, whatever

Like water. I’m  there. I don’t care. That’s the real me, as far as I’m concerned. That’s the real me, so it’s being able to be in that place and reminding myself of that. One of the things that we can do is say, “Hey, I’m here. This is the thing that Dr. Jenny was talking about.” You can remember what it feels like, and then you can keep practicing that feeling. Instead of practicing insecurity, not good enough, anger, whatever you’re practicing in your subconscious meditation, practice that, and then bring that to yourself. When you’re feeling intimate, when you’re having an intimate time, bring that into the relationship with the other person. Or if you’re just with yourself.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes, I love that so much. That ties back even to the conversation around desire and desire for another person. But there’s also that internal thing, like turning one’s self on. It’s not just about the ability for somebody else to turn us on. It’s like, How do we turn ourselves on? That’s a huge part of where sex and intimacy can be a barometer of ourselves, and we can use this just as a landmark, like, like anything else, it’s like we get a headache when we’re dehydrated or we have a headache. Come on, we know we need to drink water. There are, like, landmarks. It can just be a landmark around, like, “Wow, okay. I’m not able to turn on myself as much as I want to, or perhaps I did in the past.” That’s a landmark for what you’re talking about. like, “Oh, here’s an opportunity for me to find that feeling and get more self-love. We can use that as a cool barometer for our internal state and our internal well-being.”

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Yes, that’s great. The other thing I would say about self-esteem is that it does carry over from one thing to another. If you’re feeling insecure and low self-esteem around your body and around your sexuality right now, there’s another part of your life that you feel successful in. You’re very successful at work. You’ve been a great parent. Whatever it is that you feel, you’re amazing at interior design, and whatever it is that you’re doing, you can practice and find that self-love and appreciation there and bring that in as well.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Yes. That’s the feeling you’re talking about. How does it feel to have that self-esteem in this area? You know how it feels. Now we try to remember that feeling and then bring that into those other things. I love that it’s so useful for people.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Just to understand, to close the loop on a subconscious mind, as you start creating new pathways neurologically in your brain for different feelings, for different experiences, and tying those together, you’re creating new neural networks for that experience. You are literally beginning to shift that subconscious mind so that your brain, which’s always looking for safety in danger, has a new filter and a new interpretation of the information that’s come in. This is how we grow, we learn, we expand, and we get to heal.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

We were running out of time here. I want to ask you if there’s anything that we didn’t cover that you want to make sure we wrap up for people and make sure we get into this interview.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

I just want to say that I believe that our power is in our pelvic area. By taking on this project of getting more connected with your sexuality and finding a higher level of sexual health for you, you are taking your power back and bringing it in. All I can say is that I know this is going to have an incredible impact on everything else in your whole life and all of those levels that we talked about—that physical body, that emotional body, and that energetic body. It is just a wonderful journey to be embarking on. I am just here with you, cheering you on.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Amazing. Well, thank you so much. I want to make sure we talk about the juicy topic that we talked about before, that you’re giving away this amazing thing for people that’s going to help them with the mind and their subconscious and help them with an understanding that their mind is involved in some of their sexual desire and perhaps that they need to work on the mind a little bit more to improve their sexual desire. We’re going to have information about what this is—more details, all of that stuff—in your bio for everybody. Make sure to check that out. But what did you want to tell people about that giveaway that you’re offering?

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

The giveaway that I’m offering is a guide so that you can understand where it is and that you can work to boost your sexual health to the next level, tapping into the power of your subconscious mind.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

Perfect. Look out also for the additional bonuses that we’re giving out from Dr. Jenny. She’s been so generous for the summer. You’re going to see additional bonuses from her. I’m so excited about this. I will be posting that around the summit. As I said, you can find more editions and additional information in her speaker bios. Make sure you check that out and thank you again for your time. It’s been so lovely. I love spending time with you and appreciate you jumping on this interview today.

Jenny Tufenkian, ND

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been an absolute joy.

Diane Mueller​, ND, DAOM, LAc 

All right. Bye for now. Everybody will see you in the next one.