Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of Take Back My Brain. I am very excited about this podcast today. I have Perry Campbell with me today, and Perry has spent a lifetime of driving what he calls disruptive, innovate innovations, which means bringing to market things that did not previously exist.

So this is going to be a conversation that'll probably blow your mind. It might make some of you a little uncomfortable, maybe a little angry because you're like, because we're going to talk about red light therapy.

And he has a very unique, device called the DNA vibe. And I've got it right here. If you are on YouTube, you can see it. Oh my goodness, my family is in love with this.

My clients are in love with this DNA vibe. It's the jazz band. We're going to talk all about it today, but it is unique to say the least. And I'm going to let Perry explain all of that today, and I'm going to have the vibe on me while we chat.

So, Perry, thank you. Thank you, thank you for being on here today. I'm so excited to talk about, this therapy and how it is going to be life changing for people who listen.

It is my absolute pleasure and thank you for having me. Awesome, awesome. So I want to know is maybe 2 or 3 months ago, I, we had our first conversation maybe three months ago.

And like, I am so hooked on this little device. We have it on us like we fight for it. I need to get some more for our house because we each need one for sure.

That's funny. Yeah. So give us a little overview as to what this device is. And then I want to dive into what makes it so superior to every other light therapy out there.

I'm happy to share that. I have to confess, though, I'm a bit of a hyper nerd and I love this topic, and I could easily go for eight hours and go deeper and deeper and deeper.

But I'll try to keep things at, but at least a starter level where people can kind of get what matters most. Yeah. But anyway, I sometimes I start out by saying, look, people look at the device and they see red light and they say, oh, you're red light.

And yeah, I kind of I kind of chuckle a little bit and say, well, strictly speaking, in many ways, scientifically, we're the opposite of red light. And then I go, well, how can that be?

It looks red to me. Right? But yeah, I mean, clearly it's red. It looks red, it looks red. It. And this is where we get into, like, philosophic science about, you know, you look at the you look at the material world and there are infinite expressions of matter.

There's the, the the shelf behind you, the frame, the cut, the, you know, blades of glass, grass, ladybugs. Everywhere you look, we see an infinite expression of matter, and it turns out that the domain of energy is every bit as diverse and nuanced as the material world, but we just aren't built to experience that.

So people see red light and they assume red light is red light. It's all the same. And the answer is no, it's not. Not at all hours. For example, is 20 times less powerful then the least powerful light pad on the market, you know?

And it's like, that's pretty. That's pretty stunning. Most people stay away because it doesn't sound like that would be a very good thing right there.

There you go. Exactly. I mean, most people, like, cut their head. Okay. Why why would you why would you brag about that? You know, is it more better? And, the truth of the matter is no.

Absolutely not. The less is better. In fact, what we are doing, scientifically, it kind of starts with the DNA molecule. Right? And I think everybody knows most people at least that the DNA molecule, the the famous double helix, if you picture that in your mind's eye or look it up on Google Images, it's a sinusoidal pattern.

It literally is a wave pattern. Yeah. Energy of all kinds. Whether it's sound, heat, like all energy can only travel in a sine pattern. Right? That was proven by Marconi well over 100 years ago.

He he invented the radio, and he proved that energy travels in a sine pattern. And I enjoy doing this. I talk to I've probably talked about 30,000 people presented to them over the last couple of years.

And I always ask people, you know, raise your hand if you knew that that energy travels in a sine pattern. Out of 30,000 or more people, only five have ever raised their hand and said, yeah, I knew that, we missed something in science class, that's for sure.

But but here's the fun thing, Laurie. I actually addressed those crowds, and I say, I believe everybody knows that. You just don't know that you know that, right?

And so when when people talk about energy travel or energy propagation, we always use phrases like heat wave, sound wave, shock wave, light wave. What is a wave?

It's a sign pattern. Right. And we know these things intrinsically because when we were kids and you drop a pebble in a pond, you see the sinusoidal waves.

There's so many different ways we know that. And so but, but the reason it's kind of exciting is that in quantum physics, which is kind of my playground, when matter has a recurring pattern and the sinusoidal pattern of energy matches, that's called harmony.

Okay. And when they are in harmony, that triggers a condition called a harmonic excitation. And harmonic excitation is truly half science, half magic.

Harmonic excitation. If you've ever taken a glass of crystal and you rub the rim and you make the glass hum. Yeah, that is harmonic excitation. Your your fingers putting mechanical energy in rotational velocity is frequency.

When that frequency lines up with the molecular structure of the crystal, which is a repeating structure, the mechanical energy goes in. It literally excites the molecules.

They start dancing around and then they send acoustic energy back out, which we hear. Right. And this is actually a good illustration for, for why we're 20 times less power, if you remember doing that.

If you push, if you push harder, the humming diminishes until it eventually stops, right? But the lighter the touch, the louder the humming. Right? Right.

I think that's super cool because we live in a world where the typical person experiences what's called classic or Newtonian physics, right? In classic physics, power and impact are proportionate.

In other words, the harder you swing the bat, the further you hit the ball. The the harder you throw the ball, the the harder the impact in the glove, etc..

Right? Right. That's Newtonian or classic physics. Well, harmonic excitation is sort of the opposite of that, where the lighter the power, the greater the effect.

So this matters because again, the DNA molecules, a wiggly line energy is a wiggly line when they match up any harmonic. You trigger this harmonic excitation effect.

The DNA literally gets excited. And then two things happen. One, you release potential energy, two, you increase the probability of a state change. Right.

Now, what does that mean to say DNA? So DNA, I could I love this, I actually do a little stand up comedy routine on DNA. I'll just do a quick two minute, fun facts.

If you take the DNA molecules from one human, just one person, and you take the DNA and you stretch them, you know, lengthwise. Yeah, they will reach a lot of people.

Guess, you know, maybe around the world, know the DNA from a single human body will stretch all the way to the sun and back 200 times. Really? I know, I know, that's a pretty common.

That's a pretty common reaction. Yes. We have roughly 37, 40 trillion cells in the body. Every single cell has a DNA molecule in its nucleus. And each, segment in the nucleus is two meters in length.

Now that that kind of blows people's minds, right? It's like, wait a minute. How is that possible? That something two meters long is tucked into the nucleus of every cell in our body, and it could reach to the sun and back 200 times, and yet that fits in my body.

Like, how is that even possible? Because it makes sense. If you take the strands and you line them up side by side. They make a stack 50 miles high. So let me get this straight side by side, 50 miles lengthwise for the sun and back 200 times.

How does that fit in our body? I don't get that right. Yeah, yeah. Here's the last fun fact. Okay, if you look at the informational capacity of the DNA in a single human body.

So how much information can DNA represent? Yeah, it's equal to 157 times all the information connected to the worldwide internet in all file formats, including text, emails, for example, images, photographs, videos, 150 times, all of that in one human body. Wow.

That's amazing. That is amazing. I'm kind of blown away. I think there's something there's something really powerful about DNA. It's beyond comprehension.

How is that? How can it be so information rich structurally? How can it possibly have those properties I shared? And, you know, we don't know everything about DNA, but we're beginning to know a lot more.

We know, for example, that DNA is the one and only thing in our body that governs regenerative healing. At the end of the day, DNA is the brain and the architect behind who we are, how we function, how we heal everything.

And it's really stunning when you think about how much information and just how much, capacity and how much influence it has on on everything about us.

DNA is the one thing that that governs regenerative healing. Now, DNA effectively is a binary, system. It's either inert, hanging out, floating around in the nucleus, or it's expressing and guiding the regenerative process.

So when we're able to stimulate it extremely gently, remember harmonic excitation, the the the more gentle the power, the greater the effect. Yeah. So by being very, very gentle, we kind of I like to call it tickling the DNA.

Two things happen. That two meter long strand tucked into the nucleus is kind of like a spaghetti ball all bunched up. Okay? When when you release potential energy, it relaxes.

It begins to open up. It begins. So we like to call it, blossoming like a flower. So it becomes more accessible, more engaged. Well, by the body, for the purposes of restoring health and wellness through its regenerative effects, we're tapping into all of that incredible, power that's resident in the DNA molecule.

At the same time, we're by increasing the probability of a state change, we're enhancing the body's natural DNA driven regenerative processes. So when when the body's injured in any way, if I cut my hand, for example, the body instantly upregulate DNA.

DNA gets to work immediately building healthy new tissue to replace damaged tissue. So great. You know, no matter no matter where I'm injured, no matter how I'm injured, whether it's cut, bruised, pulled hair or whether it's a chronic attack or arthritic whatever.

The body's natural response is to boost DNA expression, to accelerate the rate of regenerative healing. It's pretty, pretty phenomenal. I, I could talk for three hours just on that topic.

Yeah, but I promise I won't. But but it is really interesting. I'll tell you what. I'll give you two minutes and then you can cut it out if it's too long.

Because it's cool if I cut myself. DNA expresses immediately starts to build exactly the right kind of tissue, exactly where it's needed. Almost to molecular precision.

Right. It builds by and large, in exactly the right quantity. I mean, I'm certainly if I cut my hand, I'm not growing a grapefruit out of my hand. Right.

I'm literally growing as much tissue as is necessary. It's being developed over a period of time, right? There's a stop and an end to that process. It's not going to last five months.

It's going to start and stop in a few days. Usually depending on the nature of the wound, it's going to build, the tissues in exactly the right spatial orientation.

Right. So they're kind of like all interconnecting and weaving, and there's all kinds of funny or, interesting ways that that happens. But here's the thing.

We do not have differentiated DNA. Right. And I think this is fascinating. So no matter where you're injured, no matter what kind of tissues are involved, it automatically triggers triggers, just the right, tissues.

What a beautiful design. It is really amazing. And not to not to beat the faith drum. You know, I respect all faiths, but I like to say, you know, the closer you look at DNA and how it's built and how it's structured, the magnificence of it 200 times to the sun and back and all that intelligence built into it, and the role and how it how it does what it does.

The closer you look, the more you see God's face smiling back. You do 100%. Yes, yes. Yeah. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And so what we're able to do with extremely low power, tuned to a, wavelength that harmonizes with the DNA is we're able to essentially make it more accessible and more enjoyable and help boost the, you know, what I call the God given, DNA driven regenerative process.

It is the only technology that does that. Other light devices are a not the right, wavelength. B the wavelength is not stabilized. So it really doesn't matter anyway.

And c far too powerful. Gotcha. Again, we're 20 times less power than the least powerful. So the least powerful is 20 times two powerful. I cannot have a I cannot have a molecular excitation effect, but it has primarily a thermal effect.

It's like wearing a heating pad where the light energy is being absorbed into the tissue and converted to thermal and kinetic energy. So yeah, it's kind of like if you want to set DNA vibe apart, it's like every light pat or every light device on the market is effectively a heating or a thermal device.

I we call them non regenerative thermal devices, whereas ours is non thermal regenerative. That's tell us what that's important. Absolutely. So if you think about the body's natural regenerative process I like to call it the miraculous symphony.

Because when the body is injured and the DNA upregulate, it sets in motion a cascading sequence of events. One we begin to synthesize amino acids. We begin to integrate protein chains, the DNA signals through RNA interaction to the mitochondria to build ATP.

The mitochondria produces the ATP to provide fuel for the new tissue. Yeah. The enzymes released in that process relax soft tissues. And so vessels and capillaries relax and therefore expand under pressure.

And that expansion is going to bring more blood oxygen platelets and growth hormone okay. Now we call that the miraculous symphony because it happens automatically instantaneously anywhere on the body.

That's beautiful. And one word you did not hear in any of that miraculous symphony is thermal. Thermal. Yeah okay okay. We're getting blood flow through pressure expansion not thermal expansion.

We're getting ATP synthesis through RNA interaction not thermal stimulation. So you get you get things like ATP, oxygen, platelets, growth hormone plus the regenerative effects without thermal effect.

Right. Gotcha. If you look at any other light pad we've not found one that's an exception. And believe me we buy all of them. We take a look at them because we never want to see anything that we can't back up.

We bought them all. They're all effectively thermal pads. There's way too much energy for harmonic excitation. Certainly at the molecular level. It's kind of like the champagne glass, and you're just crunching your finger as hard as you can. You're not. I'm sorry.

Yeah. It's not going to happen. Not going to happen. Your finger will get really hot though, right. That's well, that's the that's creating. Yeah. Yeah, that's what happens.

It's you're in physics. In quantum physics, you're either stimulating harmonic excitation and energy is being reflected or if you aren't stimulating harmonic excitation, the energy is being observed, absorbed and converted to heat.

That's like the crystal glass. This is a cool little fun experiment. If you want to do, homework at home. You get a glass made of crystal, you get, you get the glass Singing.

You could literally do that all night long. You could do it for an hour as long as you hear the acoustic, your fingertips not going to get hot. Okay. But if you if you push a little harder and you don't hear the sound anymore, and you keep going in a circle, guess what?

Your fingertip will burn, right? Right. Yeah. And it's it's not friction. Not the way. I mean, it's from a physics point of view. You're actually you've you've kind of crossed the threshold from harmonic excitation to absorption.

Okay. Yeah. And so we're kind of like we're kind of on the side of the harmonic excitation. Let's whisper gently to the body. Let's literally work in harmony with the body's natural regenerative process, like it is literally harmony.

And we think that's a beautiful thing. And, yeah. So that's one of the key things that makes us different is we're right. So in that difference, Perry.

So the phone photo via modulation. I don't know if we've thrown out that word yet, but the other devices that have the photo bio modulation that's creating the heat.

Can you tell us what's happening at the cellular level and why that can be damaging? Because I think I was under the misunderstanding for years and years and I've learned now.

So thank you very much. Why, once we use those types of devices for a period of time, sometimes you actually feel worse or you stop. So in benefits. Yeah. Yeah.

Diminishing returns and then sometimes reversal and decline. Right. Yeah. This makes me so sad. We've been quiet about this for probably too long because we don't see other light devices as competitive.

Correct. They're just a totally different science. Yeah. And yet, because people have a misunderstanding about what's actually happening, it leads to misuse and and, undesired consequences.

You know, the word photo by modulation has been around for decades. You know, by our count, there are some 5000 research papers on quote unquote, light therapy or energy therapy, whether red, infrared and others.

Photo by modulation is kind of the common theme that unites most of the studies. In fact, it's been said that photo by modulation is a synonym for light therapy, because it's become so central, in terms of how people think about light.

And I don't want to provoke anybody. So, like, if you don't agree with me, let's set up a zoom and I'll show you some pictures. It's a lot easier to explain, but the concept of photo by modulation, if anybody's heard of it, it's basically that the, the mitochondria is, you're bombarding the mitochondria with, with infrared, near-infrared or red photons.

Photons are quanta of, optical energy. There's a chroma for in the cytochrome c oxidase, which is a protein complex or enzyme inside the mitochondria.

The the cytochrome c oxidase contains a chroma for Troma. For is nothing but a fancy word that means receptor. Right. So there's a receptor that receives the photon that excites an electron, and the excited electron with an energized state, flows through what's called the electron transport chain.

It's like a little virtual current. I call it the conga line. I like to imagine all these excited electrons groovin and going down the HTC. Yeah, yeah.

And and so it's true. It's exactly what happens. So they're all dancing through these, these baffles in the mitochondria, through some alternating voltage potentials and current and the interactions lead to the production of ATP, nitric oxide and some downstream effects, increased blood flow, oxygenation, and ultimately angiogenesis.

And so you read any light, study, you're gonna you're on the topic of method of action. You're gonna hear that. Right? So if nothing else, I just saved everybody a lot of time because we have read pretty much half of all of the papers we've read with our own eyeballs, and the other half we've Socratic interrogated using open AI so we can speak with a lot of confidence.

That's pretty much what, what what they describe. So the issue is, hey, that actually happens 100% exactly how the research characterizes it. Photon absorption, excitation of electron conga line ATP.

Yeah. So it's funny when I, when I talk to people, especially people who are sort of like sold out to the idea of PBM, I say, well, the good news, the good news is it's 100% correct.

The bad news is it's 99.99% incorrect. And it's like, how can something be both correct and incorrect at the same time? Yeah. And it's a it's an interesting answer.

And it's easier with a picture, but I'll try to describe it this way. We call it the B. B. in a beach ball syndrome. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the mitochondria is inside the cell, right?

And therefore it's a it's a relatively small subset. In fact, the volume of the mitochondria compared to the volume of the cell is about 3 to 8%, depending on muscle type.

Okay. So take an average 5%. Right. So so already if the cell's a beach ball, the mitochondria is like a little tiny golf ball inside the beach ball. Now the cytochrome c oxidase, this this protein complex is one of nine protein complexes inside the mitochondria.

And then there's other things in the mitochondria as well. So you're kind of like, okay, wait a minute. So I'm now less than one tenth of 5%. Actually the cytochrome c is the chroma four part of the cytochrome is about 0.1375% of the total beach ball.

Right. So that's why we call it the B. B. in a beach ball, if you shine light at the beach ball, some of the photons are going to strike the B. B., right?

But only about 0.137 5% maximum under theoretically pure, conditions. Let me just touch on that for a moment. What does that mean? Well, yeah. And it's phenomenal.

When I talked to some people about this, this kind of surprises people. So the the chroma for that is there to receive the air in here. And red spectrum photons if it is 100% available, meaning it's not doing anything.

And it's just waiting for someone to shine a light into us so that it can absorb that light. If it's 100% available, the maximum amount that it could ever possibly absorb is 0.1 percent. Wow.

But the fact of the matter is, and this is where a little common sense comes into play, it's not idle, right and right. It's actually it's doing stuff all the time.

Like why I ask? I've asked people like very, very smart people and I, I'm, I believe some of the best, researchers in the planet, have, have done some of this research, so I'm not in any way, suggesting that, that they're not amazing. They are amazing.

But sometimes we, we forget a little bit of common sense. Right? So why do you suppose that the chromosphere is there in the first place? Like it's there for a reason, right?

We evolve in a certain way, and, and there's, almost like a rule in genomic sciences where it's extremely rare to see something evolve for no reason at all.

The Chrome offer is in the mitochondria in order to receive infrared photons. And guess what? We humans are infrared generators, right? Right. Yeah, we are in the 70s. Yes.

If if I wiggle my pinky, you can see me do this from an infrared satellite. You can actually observe me wiggling my pinky. In other words, the tip of my pinky is emitting so much infrared that it's traveling all the way through space and it can be observed in a in a infrared camera from space. Wow.

So we are constantly emitting infrared at 98.6°F, right? Okay. People may not realize this, but infrared is nothing more than thermal energy, right? It's really.

Yeah, right. You stand in front of a wood burning fireplace. That nice warm glow. Ooh. That's nice infrared. So we're constantly emitting infrared. That infrared is already fully occupying the chroma floor, because the design spectrum of the human body is generating the photons that are absorbed by the chromosphere in the first place.

So, no, it's not just sitting there waiting for somebody to shine a light, right? Right. The other the other side of the coin is, if you think about it, well, even if it was available, it's going to receive a photon bump on an electron and trigger that electron transport process.

But there's a cycle time involved, and the cycle time is not perfect. So there's a certain reset, cycle. And so you have a chroma for that there. In order to receive infrared, we're already generating it's not fully available and there's a cycle time.

Remember I said the best, best case scenario under pure conditions is 0.1%. But when you add utilization and cycle time, that goes down to 0.01%. Wow. So this is why when people talk about photo by modulation, it's like, yeah, it actually does happen exactly the way the research describes.

But it's pretty meaningless as a, as a function. Right. That happens to an extent that really, it cannot account for for the effects. Okay. This brings us back to your question.

Why does that matter? Well, because people believe photo by modulation is what's happening, when in fact it's really not anywhere near the primary effect.

Photo by modulation is a photochemical process, not a thermal process. So if you believe it's actually PBM that's causing the effects, then you're under the mistaken impression that there's no thermal effect.

But the reality is, and this is the key question, if only 0.01%, i.e..000001, it's really small. If only 0.0 1% of photons are involved in PBA. And then what are the other 99.99% doing?

Right? Right. That's kind of a big question. And the answer is yes. The the the primary effect of those 99.99% of photons, meaning virtually all of the light on them, is that they're being absorbed by three other chromatophores, aka receptors.

They're being absorbed by water, melanin and hemoglobin. Okay. And the effect of that absorption is conversion to thermal and kinetic energy aka heat.

Okay. But PBM, researchers will say yeah, but there's no measurable heat. Heat in quantum physics is either thermal or kinetic or some combination. And when you're talking molecular levels, it's like our normal temperature measurement devices don't work.

Don't work there. Yeah. You're not going to measure it. But it is it is affecting the, the the it's thermodynamic effect on the mitochondria far more it's not even comparable.

It's just it's a thermodynamic effect. Now this is interesting and I'll just kind of take you through a little walk outside. Okay? Let's say you, you go outside on a hot day, you immediately begin to sweat.

And it happens. We could call it perspire. But let's face it, we just start sweating immediately. Yes. It happens instantly. We may not feel the beat of sweat run down our brow for a minute or two, but it takes a while for that to accumulate.

I think it's fascinating. The body says, oh my gosh, it's hot enough outside that it's going to affect my internal temperature. Right? Kick off the defense mechanism, start sweating, evaporative cooling.

I'm starting to I'm launching my defenses instantly a few minutes later. If you stay outside, your breathing rate is going to go up, right? You're going to start panting.

Because now you're exhausting heat. Okay. Just like a dog exhaust heat, through its breathing. I think it's fascinating because we don't choose to do that.

It's kind of like important matters, right? Yeah. So karmic. And then if we stay outside a little longer, guess what happens next? Our heart rate goes up, right?

Right. Our surface level vessels and capillaries begin to dilate, and then our heart goes up. And so we accelerate the flow of blood at the surface of our bodies in order to radiate heat.

Now we're behaving just like a heat pump. And that happens automatically like we're not choosing these things. The body is doing it because it knows it's under severe threat.

What happens next I mean this gets more and more interesting to me. Okay. So I'm sweating, I'm breathing fast and my heart's pumping. Then I start feeling tired.

And I recently had this experience but but it's pretty well known. You start feeling tired and it's an autonomic fatigue like you, you might have had a great night sleep.

And you know, I just chug the venti coffee 20 minutes ago. But gosh, for some reason I just feel tired. Right. And then what happens next? You start feeling stiff?

You start feeling lethargic? Yeah. Sometimes it feels almost like flu, like symptoms. And and you start, you kind of have this, this achy stiffness. And then the next thing is my favorite.

You start having what you believe to be, rational thoughts. And you start persuading yourself, hey, you know what? I'm really tired. I might need to just lie down and take a nap so that I can regain my strength in order to go on.

Right, right, right, right. You're having this internal thought dialog. And guess what? It's not you. It's your autonomic system planting thoughts. It's crazy. Right?

Now the sad part is if at that point you don't get cooled off, you're going to lie down and you're going to go through the three phases of heat, stress, heat shock, heat stroke.

Yeah. And then likely death if you're not, if you're not saved by that point. Sure. Now here's the point. Like you think at that, multiple layers of pretty aggressive defense.

I've asked a lot of researchers and professors, medical doctors and professors, can you think of one other layered defense mechanism, physiological defense mechanism that's more aggressive than that?

Yeah, and not one of them has to like, you can't think it's down that's comes down. This is the most aggressive. Now, you know, a couple people have made a fair argument that on the other side, like if you're in in the freezing cold, you do have a similar inverse reaction, but also about controlling and protecting your internal temperature.

Separate. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Either too hot or too cold. The body will freak out. Now I've asked I've ask the scientists. Why do you suppose that is? It's a very, very simple question and nobody's answered it correctly so far.

Okay. The the reason we have this incredibly aggressive defense mechanism to protect from internal core temp change is because we're mammals. Yeah okay. That simple. Right.

So the two defining characteristics of a mammal is that we we don't lay eggs on the outside. And we have thermostat like when our body temperature changes off set point.

That is a really, really bad situation. The body does that to save your life from viruses and bacteria that otherwise would kill you. But you don't want to do things like overheat.

You'll get you'll get serious consequences. So what happens when you put a light pad on the body that is way more powerful? Like, like I said, 20 times more powerful than ours, right?

You're literally blasting energy into the tissue where it's being absorbed and converted to thermal thermo kinetic energy heat. Okay. That energy, it doesn't feel hot on the outside like you touch the pad, but you put it on.

It's kind of like you park your car in the sun and you come back five minutes later. It's like 120 degrees inside the car. It's like much, much hotter than the outside temperature.

The sun rays are being absorbed into the cushions and the leathers in the vinyls, and they're being absorbed and converted to heat. Same thing happens.

That's just how matter and energy interact. So you're putting that temperature increase directly on the mitochondria. The mitochondria is not accustomed to internal temperature change and it starts pumping ATP as a survival mechanism.

So like, oh my God, the body's being destroyed. I have to let it go. This is my time. I have to just pump it out. So there's, there's a pretty significant increase in, in ATP.

Okay. As people who believe in PBM, they, they expect to see ATP, they see ATP. They think that supports the case for for PBM. Gotcha. But it doesn't it actually is a thermal induced stress reaction.

That makes sense. Okay. See all this physics stuff. It's pretty clear. It is pretty cool. It's yeah. It's a it's a physics thing more than, more than a, say, biological sciences thing.

And I mean, with all respect to, to the research on PBM, a quantum physicist is going to look at the interaction between matter and energy differently.

Right? A quantum physicist is not necessarily looking for a method of action. Right? Yeah. But, medical or biological research is looking for method of action.

They shine light. They observe this process and they say, boom, there's my method of action. The focus immediately shifts to repeating that as opposed to what else might be happening.

So we repeated 100 times and then here's repeated and then research papers. Confirm it. And then pretty soon that becomes sort of the Bible, when in fact that's a very, very small minute effect.

Right? Right. So, so you have this excess ATP production and you know, there's people like, oh, when I use my red light therapy I feel better. Yeah. Yeah.

So explain what that is. Yeah. Absolutely. It's it's actually quite simple. And and I do want to modulate some of my thoughts here in a minute, but, when you overstimulate the body with thermal effect and the ATP surges, that is the equivalent of a sugar high.

Oh, okay. And the body loves a sugar high because of them. Yes. Yep. I think, you know, I live in Colorado. You go to an oxygen bar, you take a big hit of oxygen, you feel a surge of vitality.

The body loves oxygen, right? So ATP and oxygen. Ooh, I feel great. But it doesn't mean that doing it in excess is going to be of any help. And I just want to, you know, kind of say, if you do it every day, I would caution, like, I, I go to a trade event.

I'm at one now. I'm almost certain that there will be a light bed down there, and I will be the first one to put my name on the list, because I want to go lay in that light bed for 15 minutes, and I will, with no fear.

I will do that for 15 minutes. And when I walk out of that light bed, I'm going to feel great. I'm going to feel a surge of energy, and I'm going to feel, wow, you know, somehow the light energized me, right?

Which is what a lot of people describe. That is a, an artificial, surge of ATP, thermally induced. And I will feel great. But I won't do it every day.

Right. And if you do it every day, there's this sneaky little, fox called entropy. And again, entropy is primarily a concept from physics. Entropy is kind of a physical law that says all systems of matter will decay and decline and lose productivity with time and activity.

Right? All systems of matter. It's not a matter of opinion. It's like, I look like this because of entropy. I used to look, you know, much younger. Or if you drive your car longer, more often or drive it more aggressively, it will be in the shop more often.

There's nothing you can do about it. It doesn't matter what kind of car you drive. And right. So if you overstimulate the mitochondria again and again and again, day after day after day, it will lose its, mitochondrial productivity, its capacity to create ATP in the first place will begin to decline.

And so you were describing earlier, Laurie, people reporting, you know, wow. It kind of felt great at first, but maybe it's not feeling as good anymore.

And then over time, it's I'm kind of back to where I started. And then, that's the effect. You're kind of over stimulated doing overdoing it too much of that kind of work.

Yeah. Going to wearing it out and that happens to all matter. I think biological tissues can regenerate to a certain extent. So the good news is if you overdo it and you undermine the mitochondrial productivity, if you stop doing it, then maybe within a few years you'll be back to where you should be, right?

Okay. Because eventually, eventually, you'll replace all the cells and the mitochondria will be healthy again. But we're a little bit concerned. I mean, I'm not pulling the alarm or anything, but we're hearing a lot of doctors out in the field.

We have 4 or 5000 clinical partners now who say, tell us stories all the time. Athlete hurts the left shoulder or the right shoulder? Right. One of the shoulders is hurt.

Yeah. They'll do a light, light pad. And then the athlete will say, wow, my injured shoulder feels better than my healthy shoulder. Right. Yeah. Now that before you high-five and celebrate that, stop and think logically for a second.

Does that make sense that you're injured. Shoulder is going to feel better than your healthy shoulder. It shouldn't it shouldn't. Something else is going on that has nothing to do with the health of that shoulder.

And that's called sugar high. It's an artificial stimulating effect because you've flooded your shoulder unnaturally with, with ATP, which is why. So the same story two weeks later, the athlete saying, yeah, it still feels pretty good.

Not quite like it did at first, but still. And then two weeks after that, yeah, it's still feeling a little better, but nothing like before. And then, you know, as you go on, eventually they get back to.

Yeah. No, I'm kind of back to where I was. And so I would tell people, don't be afraid of light beds or light panels or light spars. I enjoy those. But, you know, I'm going to probably moderate and I'm not going to do that more than once every three, four days.

15 minutes. Yeah. I get more concerned about well, there's two things. One with the light beds. If you go to a biohacking spa once a week and you enjoy a light bed, hey that's awesome right? More power to you.

I wouldn't hesitate to do that. I love those, but when a, say, a pro athlete goes to one of those biohacking spots and like, wow, that light bed made me feel great, I want to buy one and bring it home and put it in my basement so I can do it every day.

I would flash the yellow lights. Okay? Yeah. Be careful. Big difference. You start doing that every day. That's a lot of energy in your body. That's a lot of thermal, wear and tear on the mitochondria.

It's going to feel good for a while. Pretty soon you're going to be thinking you have low tissues. Oh. That makes sense. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Be careful.

All right, so the the other thing that we're a little cautious about is people who buy light pads. And I'm not talking about hours. Right. Again, I can't say it enough.

Ours is 20 times less power for good reason. We are non thermal or harmonic. We're stimulating the body's natural regenerative process. But the light pads you buy off the off the shelf.

They're putting energy into the body and they're bypassing the body's natural layer defense mechanism we talked about. So you're overcooking the mitochondria and it's doing its thing that you read the box and it says do that every day, twice a day for 15, 20 minutes like I've we buy them.

We've read those instructions. And I'm like horrified. I'm like, oh my God, please don't do that. Anyway, do you once in a while, don't do it once in a while.

Nothing wrong with that. If you bought one, don't feel bad about it. Keep it. Just do it. Use it as you might a heating pad and don't overdo it. Right.

So Perry, what's the difference. So we talked about light pads. And what's the difference between like the DNA vibe. And like your therapy and, laser therapy.

What's the difference there? So very big difference. And they go really well together. Okay, okay. So the nice thing and I'm a, I'm a laser geek. Yeah, I invented the SDI laser.

You know, the Star Wars laser. Like, I love lasers. Been been doing lasers for 40 years. Almost. A laser is going to deliver light energy deeper into the body, right?

Okay, so if you if you think about a heating pad, I've got a tennis elbow. I put a heating pad on my tennis elbow. And it's going to cause thermal expansion of vessels and capillaries.

Bring more blood, more oxygen, platelets, growth hormone. We call that restorative healing. It's actually helping improve the health and vitality of your existing tissues.

Right. Not stimulating new tissues but you know yeah. Nothing wrong with improving the health of existing tissue. Thermal effect is good in moderation because of blood flow and oxygen oxygenation.

The beauty of a laser is that it will deliver that effect deep into the body where it could be most helpful. So if I have a knee injury or a hip injury or a spinal injury and I'm lasering it, the laser is going to bring the thermal benefits deeper.

Gotcha. Right, right. And, and I've asked a lot of laser experts by the way. I mean this is kind of one of those things like why do you think that a laser delivers energy deeper.

And 100% of everybody I've asked so far has said because of the power density, like lasers concentrate the power and the collimated beam and the power density.

And I say that's actually not why the laser goes deeper. It is collimation. So the alignment of wavefronts, this rhythmic alignment of wavefronts is what causes the laser's light to go deep into the body.

It's not so much a function of intensity as simple collimation to, to put that in context. I think all of us were kids at one point. I mean, yeah, normal.

Yeah. You're you're in a pool and there's a little rubber ducky or some kind of a floaty toy, and you want to push it to the other end of the room to, other end of the pool.

Right. You could splash like this as hard as you want. And that that ducky is just going to float up and down. But if you get into a rhythm of just pushing the waves rhythmically, that duck will go to the other side lickety split, right, right, right.

That's collimation. And that's why lasers are so good at delivering energy deep into the body. Okay. And so if I've got an injured knee or a hip and I bring more blood flow, more oxygen, I am, I am helping the body heal.

Restorative Lee and then in many cases, reducing barriers to the body's natural regenerative healing. And it's going to have a big effect now. Nobody does. I say nobody that I know, nobody does or nobody should be doing laser more than, say, two times a week at the high end.

I most people who use lasers and we have several thousand partners who have all kinds of lasers. Yeah. They'll typically do it, once a week, once every other week, sometimes up to two times a week, depending on, on the protocol.

And that's fine. And nobody does a laser for more than, say, 3 to 7 minutes. It's very rare that a laser session will go longer than six minutes. So all of the deleterious effects of thermal effect that I talked about, you don't have to worry so much with a laser because it is self moderating.

You're only doing it every few days to a small amount. So great. Take advantage of the thermal effect deep in the body, help the body and then take the jazz band home and do it daily twice a day in between.

Right? Because now you're getting the benefit of deep seated thermal effect with non thermal regenerative effect. And that combination is excuse me. It's pretty magical right. Yeah.

No I love it. I love using the both of them and like like how you're saying it's it's pretty cool. Oh yeah. Yeah yeah I mean we, we have, we have cases where more and more, surgeons or orthopedic surgeons are canceling surgeries on the operating table.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing because like they're saying, hey, we're seeing things that are not supposed to be able to happen like this isn't this isn't supposed to happen.

Cartilage regrowing meniscus is, healing. Yeah. We had a recent we had a recent case where there was an MRI, confirmed grade two, ankle injury, grade two sprain.

Normally, if you look it up, it's a 3 to 6 week, recovery process. Yeah. They were clinically certified to return to sport within three days. Wow. That's a shock.

I've seen a lot. Yeah, it's very shocking. A heating pad is not going to do that, right? No, no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I love this little thing. What else do you want to say about it. Because.

Well, there's a comment. Come in common question. Why do we have four modes? Right. And, you know, one of the things about our product is it does have four modes.

It has a red light, you know, it's a certain red light, very low. You only see ten emitters. Most, most pads of that size are going to have 50 to 60 emitters or more.

Right. You don't see points of light, right? You see discs of light. This if you see a point of light, it is already far too much for harmonic excitation. Right? So really.

Okay. Yeah. It's very, very delicate. Remember the glass. If it's a little too much pressure, it doesn't take much. Right. The lighter than touch. So you only see ten and they're very, very low intensity.

Well that extremely low level of highly diffused light won't penetrate very far into the body. Right. And we want to go through the body to deliver all of the effects.

Most people think well to go deeper you have to increase power. Right. And that's not true. There's all kinds of ways. If you're, if you're a quantum physicist and there's probably some in the audience probably.

Yeah, there are all kinds of ways to get energy to penetrate deeper into matter that have nothing to do with intensity. And so we have the near infrared.

We have a very, very low level. It's non thermal six near infrared emitters. And they are they it has a longer wavelength. It goes through the body and it's absorbed in the tissue and converted to kinetic energy.

So that causes molecules to bounce around as they're moving around. It's creating space. It's also breaking what's called reflective planes. So in our tissues and in our fluids we can get these these reflective planes that set up.

And when a photon bounces it reflects off and it doesn't go in your body. So by moving molecules we're breaking those internal reflective planes. The second thing we do is we have micro vibration.

So you feel that right. Yeah. If you put your finger anywhere on the pad, you'll see equal amplitude vibration. Right. Yeah. Anywhere. Anywhere on the pitch.

Yeah. And so that's one of the, one of the three main reasons we use silicone. Silicone propagates vibration almost perfectly. Right. So the whole pads vibrating.

So when you put that on the body it's trembling your tissue. Yeah. And by adding mechanical energy into the tissue it causes relaxation and expansion of the tissues.

That's creating space breaking planes. So the red goes deeper. Any fans out there of DC comics, the flash who phases through matter? We're doing the same thing.

It's a quantum thing. It's a kind of a vibration, allows energy to penetrate. It's very cool. And then the, the, the we call it micro magnetic. So we have a, very sharp edge, engineered square wave, very square.

It's at 55 micro Tesla. And I have to tell people because I'm part time stand up comic. That is not small electric vehicles. A 55 micron Tesla is the Earth's natural magnetic field strength.

So, like, right now, on our Earth, to stand outside, we would get the 50 micro Tesla on the ground. Is that what you're saying? You don't have to go outside. It's everywhere.

It's everywhere. Okay? The Earth has a natural magnetic field. South pole, North pole. Our magnetic poles. Yeah. And so we are literally, constantly, inescapably in a magnetic field.

And that magnetic field is 50 to 60 micro Tesla. So we're right in the middle of that range. And we're just doing a sharp edge square modulation. And that causes blood iron molecules to wiggle.

Right. We're talking molecules here people. So like when you think of a cell, a cell is a small thing you cannot see without a microscope. Right? A blood iron molecule is tiny compared to that.

Right? So very, very gentle. Just a little bit of a wiggle. So we're moving. We're adding mechanical energy. It's creating space. It's breaking planes.

These are all just techniques to allow the lowest amount of red possible to penetrate as deeply as possible. And that's how we're able to do the harmonic excitation.

If we didn't do that, there's just no way you can't get light into the body gently enough for a harmonic excitation unless you do these things. When when I said we're 20 times less powerful than the least powerful I've had.

Yeah. The effect of energy on matter is to the square of the intensity. So it's like 400 times less powerful. In effect. Right. And it has to be that low.

So the trick is like you're getting that incredibly low gentle light deep through the body. And it's literally harmonizing with you at the DNA molecule level and boosting its, regenerative, potential.

Oh my gosh. And it feels so good. It feels really good. And you do I love this. Yeah. So we have a we have a vagus protocol, where this is kind of a funny little side story.

About three years ago, we got a big, long email from a doctor who said, hey, my patients are having remarkable results for local injuries. You know, knees, elbows, necks, etc.

but they're also all reporting that they're sleeping better at night. They're having less stress and anxiety throughout the day. They're having more regular healthy bowel function.

Yeah. And doctor Max, doctor Max and I, that first email, we looked at it and I'm almost embarrassed to admit we dismissed it as a fluke. And we just said, hey, that's really good news.

Thanks for letting us know. We just missed it because it wasn't on the radar screen. And then about 3 or 4 weeks later, we got another email from a totally different doctor across the country saying the same thing.

Yeah, local healing, less stress, less anxiety, you know, healthy bowel function. Yeah. And then it was like a rainstorm. We started getting more and more and more, and we realized, oh my gosh, something's going on here.

So they they bullied us into doing a pilot trial. Our doctors bullied us and said, look, something's going on. You got to go do a study. So we worked with University of Michigan, University of California, and 12 Purple Heart battlefield wounded veterans pegged on the complex PTSD scale.

Right. Disabled by PTSD. Not not just not just sick people. Yeah. And, the stories of life change are among the greatest inspiration. I still get phone calls from some of these vets a year and a half after the completion of the study, and they're saying things like, so the vagus protocol was you put the jazz band right over the root of the vagus, kind of the left jaw down over the center of the sternum, down a little bit, down a little bit. Right? Yeah, yeah, a little bit more centered on the chest angle, slightly to the left.

The other left. There you go. Perfect. That's it. So you notice the pulsing we do have. I told you about the reason for the micro vibration is to let the red penetrate.

Yeah. We also we also, pulse the vibration every five seconds. To reason for the pulsing. When you combine pulse with vibration, you break fluid bonds.

So non vascular fluids, lymphatic fluids, interstitial fluids can move more easily through the area. That's like for the scientists out there we call it the catch up science.

When you want to get ketchup out of a glass bottle what do you do? You shake the bottle and then you pound on it. Shake, pound. Yeah. Fluid dynamics, one on one.

Vibration with pulse breaks, bonds, fluids move. Right. So. But the reason for the five second pulse is you breathe in and out in time with each pulse.

In and out. It's time for 12 breaths per minute on purpose. So the vagus protocol, you put it there, right over the center of the chest, slightly left.

Tilt, relax and breathe in and out in time with the pulse. These veterans had incredible life change. So a year and a half later, they're calling me and they're saying things like, guess what I did today.

I played a board game with my wife. Right. And the story there as well, prior to the protocol, the veteran was so tense that they couldn't play a board game because it would stress them to the point of you would trigger them.

Right. I had a gunnery gunnery sergeant, called me and said, hey, guess what I did today? I went out hunting with my buddies. This is more than a year and a half later, I went out hunting.

This gentleman could not tolerate the sound of a car door slamming, and suddenly he's able to go out hunting and enjoy life with his buddies. I mean, we have so many stories out there.

Yeah. So the Vegas, the Vegas protocols, it's it's rapidly becoming very, very universal because, not only can it help with things that are autonomic and parasympathetic, which, by the way, improves your body's natural ability to heal.

Yeah. It's helping with anxiety. It's helping with, with gastrointestinal health. It's like all the things that the autonomic system, works on. It's also the research team's found that it was helping improve the healing process for other local injuries just because of the parasympathetic.

Oh, that makes total sense. Yeah. If you're parasympathetic, you're going to heal. If your mind's kind of hard, you're in your healing state, right? Right. Yeah. And that's when he realizes that.

Yes. Yeah. It's so key. It's so key. And I see this as being I mean you're talking about veterans and stuff, but all these little kids that are injured, you know, you know, from shots and you know, all those kind of things like this is such an easy thing to do.

Right? So you're not trying to get oh my goodness supplements or anything. Like you're just putting this on them and it feels really good. I was, you know, so I've had some really good conversations with parents are like, yeah, and the kids love this, so.

Well, I'm going to give you a sneak peek of something. I can't say too much about. It is kind of a, confidential initiative. And by the way, you talk about kids, you put the jazz band on your countertop or your couch and see if your cat or your pet doesn't come in. Oh, they do.

They love it. Yeah, they're they're naturally attracted to it. And. Yeah, one of my favorite animal photos with a farmer in Portugal I like. Who would have thought a farmer in Portugal sent me a photograph of his cow who was having severe hip issues.

And then the cow just moves. It's like. It's like, like I love it. And, yeah, like a horse when it starts licking and chewing, when you put it on it, I mean, they love it.

Yeah, yeah. I'll just any pictures like this. So we've had, we've had some pretty serious, family offices experience what it does and what it means, especially for youngsters, and want to help make sure that every single athlete, high school, college in America ends up with a jazz band.

So I won't say more for now, but it's a really big deal. It's a really exciting initiative. And I personally, you know, my heart goes out to the kids because I happen to sit on a school board, so I've access to too much data.

Yeah. And it's heartbreaking because 80%, roughly 80% of high school age teenagers self-report being depressed. Yeah, they do a shocking statistic. And I know when when I was in high school, like probably the most stress that I ever experienced was like, who am I going to invite to homecoming, you know, if anybody.

Right? Yeah, I had stress over that. But we're talking chronic, chronic stress levels is awful. Awful. So, you know, whatever we can do to help, the kids, but it's kind of one of those things.

It doesn't really matter who you are. I think the World Health Organization and the NIH, have data that 50% of all humans struggle with chronic and recurring pain to an extent that undermines their quality of life.

Yeah. And the other half, the other half have that periodically. Right. That's like yeah. So our heart is to try to help as many people as we possibly can.

And I just want to reiterate you said previously that this helps to regenerate cartilage. So lots of people with knee issues. And you know I'm just thinking like hip replacements and knee replacements are epidemic right now.

So oh my goodness. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Well I certainly I certainly won't make that claim, but I will tell you a couple stories. Our, our highest single day sales rate in the company's history occurred February 13th of 2002.

I'll never forget that day, because suddenly we're standing around in the shop and, you know, we have a little bell that rings whenever there's a sale.

And it started going, ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. Oh my God. Women's World had published an article from a woman she was 60 years old, lived an active life, played tennis, played pickleball.

Her whole social world was around tennis and pickleball. I and, you know, she she was diagnosed with severe degenerative arthritic knees. Told she had no choice but, bilateral knee replacement surgery.

And she literally panicked and put a jazz band on both knees. She got to put one on each knee every day for 1 to 2 hours, you know, and like, the more you do it, the better.

Like the, the what we call conventional light devices. Probably don't do it too much, but with ours, it's so low energy. The more you go, the better. She.

Within two months, she went back for her pre surgical, review. And they canceled the surgery. She wrote her story to the editor because she just wanted to help get the word out.

So here to get this editorial article out of the blue. So there have been reports, we've had a, we've got a number of athletes who blow out their knee, tear the meniscus, deemed to be, you know, surgical option is the only option.

And, you know, lo and behold, after, an extended period, 5 or 6 weeks. Yeah. They canceled their surgeries. So, you know, we we can't guarantee anything like that.

But what we do guarantee is if somebody gets the jazz band and it does not help them with their issue, we give them a full refund. And seems a bit crazy.

But we're in the business like you are to make the world a better place, right? And, you know, like our our tacky little. It's it's it's a, it's a motto that we actually are inspired and we live by.

We're here to make the world a better place, one better life at a time. So if our product doesn't make your life better, we're not going to keep your money.

And add insult to injury, right? Right, right. So we have confidence in the technology. But you know, we also are committed to that principle. You know that makes sense.

That's really exciting. Any other stories you want to share. Like oh this is a really cool story. There are so many and I've got my favorites. And it's it's kind of one of those things where young, old, male, female, active.

In fact, it doesn't matter. We get all kinds of stories. So one of my favorite all time was a couple in their, early to mid 80s. They had had, shingles.

And they, they got to the point after the shingles, they had residual, peripheral neuropathy is another nerve damage. They couldn't function. They were in bed.

They were literally bedridden with severe pain. And they thought that was it. That's that's going to be the rest of our lives. And they wrote to us and it was a tear jerker.

They got jazz bands in bed side by side, and they started using the jazz bands daily. And within a couple of weeks they were able to get out, walk the dog garden, enjoy life again.

And that just shattered my heart. I mean, and then, you know, then we we get these young athletes, you know, there was a father who came and he knocked on our door, which is hilarious.

I mean, if anybody's ever seen our what we call Viv labs or manufacturing center, we're not a retail location. Right? Right. So this father drove an hour and a half, hunted us down, found out where we were.

We didn't even have a sign up. And he's banging on the front door, I answer, he tells me the story. His high school son blew his knee out in the final game of the season, and was diagnosed with severe cartilage damage and told, you're going to have to get a full replacement.

And of course, the reason the father was panicky was like, this is a my son has D1 football dreams. This shatters everything. And I just kind of like, melted.

And I'm like, here, take this jazz band. Tell him, you know, front and back, twice a day, as often as he can before the surgery. And he's one of the kids who went in there and they canceled the surgery when it healed up before. Yeah.

So you get that kind of story a lot. We've got a starter for the Boston Red Sox who, you know, sent us a very nice note. He's become a very good friend of ours.

He simply will not pitch without doing the shoulder and the elbow before pitching. Which is for many in the injury. So. Yes. And I probably should mention that, whether you're going to go out and shovel snow or you're going to go out and play a game of golf, or you're going to go out and do some pickleball or whatever your jam is, if you do the jazz band for 15 minutes on whether it's your low back, your knees, your shoulder, your whatever your issue, do that for 15 minutes.

It helps preconditioned the body to boost performance and mitigate the risk of injury, because what's happening is through the natural miraculous symphony that I described.

We're getting the body, both blood flow oxygen and ATP non thermally, which helps the body in so many different ways. The contrast is, you know, if you're a professional baseball pitcher and you put a heating pad on your shoulder and on your elbow before game time, you're probably going to hurt yourself.

Yeah. You don't want to do that. Yeah. It's going to soften the tissues to the point where you're going to end up causing more stress and more damage.

But with the jazz band, you're getting the benefit of the ATP and oxygen without the thermal consequences. So it's I think preconditioning is become a crowd favorite for sure, right?

Yeah. For sure for sure. Oh my goodness Perry, I have so many questions. But I mean, we've been talking for like an hour and 15 minutes. So is there anything else you want to add to the conversation to leave the listeners with?

Hi. First, I guess the only thing I could possibly say at this point is I apologized profusely for going on and on and on, and I it is a topic that is a passion.

I think even though it may seem like I've gone on for so long, we've still scratched the surface. So I know, I know, you know, we just we just love this, we love the opportunity to use the best of science and really help people have a better life and their pets and everybody.

Yeah, whether cat, dog, horse or cow. So I love it. All of our animals are loving it. Anyway, this is amazing, Perry. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Everybody, the information about where to buy this is down in the show notes. So, make sure that you click on that and check this out. You want to get the jazz band.

And this is amazing technology. It's going to be life changing for so many people period. So thank you for one developing this and for taking the time to share all your knowledge and expertise with us.

I appreciate you very much. Thank you, Lori. My pleasure. And do get the live pro with the four modes. You won't regret it. Yes. Awesome. And thank you everyone for listening.

Make sure you like, subscribe and share because everybody needs this okay? So make sure you share this with everyone. God bless you and I will see you in the next episode.

Red Light Reinvented: The Therapy Device Every Home Needs

Laurie Hammer, FNTP, NNTS

Perry Kamel

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