And then I saw how powerful psychedelics could be when they were used sacredly and used correctly, and an environment was set up so that people could recover in them and find themselves.

And it's really like handing somebody a key. There you go. If you use this key, you have a chance. We're going to set up the conditions for you, use a key.

And if you are willing to grow, you're going to go somewhere. And I just got amazed. This is doctor Talks. Welcome everybody to the To Curious MD podcast, where we ask those unasked questions and ketamine treatments, psychedelic healing and integrative medicine, and of course, my favorite narrative medicine and storytelling and the art of healing through the sciences.

Today we have a very special guest. His name is Richard W. He is a Navy veteran who's been in treatment with ketamine assisted therapy. I would say over a year and has been really doing the work from day one to even now.

And he's going to talk to us about his practices in integration. What worked for him, his ketamine experiences, and things that I feel patients need to hear because it has so much more impact and so much more meaning.

So welcome, Richard. Welcome to our podcast. We are so excited to have you and do this podcast today. Thank you very much. Very nice to be here. So Sami is also here today.

Hello Simi. And I'm sure you're going to help start this conversation. Let's begin. Let's begin. Richard, so wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much.

I do want to say that, you know, in getting to know you, I think today's discussions going to go a lot of different directions. And I think we're going to be able to tie it all together.

And I'm so excited to, learn from you. I think our patients learn from each other sometimes. Our experiences there are lots of different threads that run through our experiences, but it's also some of the most inspiring and interesting work and meaningful work that we're doing.

So I really hope that our listeners can really find, you know, maybe answers to the questions that they have in their own life, some of the big answers that we're kind of trying to grasp at.

Right. And so thank you so much for your time, for your energy. We just love to hear from someone who's going through their healing journey, because each time we do, there's something in it for each of us.

I learn every time. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you. So I'll just start you off with a little getting to know you icebreaker. Can you tell us a little bit about your early life, your life as, maybe in the services or, you know, just kind of the pieces that you might want to share with us that help us understand.

Who is Richard? Well, I'll start a little bit for that. I actually grew up here. I moved here when I was two years old from Arizona, and we lived near Whitney Avenue Elementary School.

We had a brick red brick house with walnut trees in the front, in the back, and then back in the old days, used to bring your trash to the trash burning area.

And I remember going in the back would be barbecuing or something. And all of a sudden these jets were just complaining over and they turned out to be Blue Angels or no, that was Napoleon.

It was the Thunderbirds. And I was just amazed by that. And that got me interested in aviation. So I have that kind of background from way, way back. And when I got in the Navy, I was lucky enough to be in aviation.

So I got to be a jet mechanic and, I worked, with the island in Washington state, which is a really beautiful place. And, we only spent about out of the three years I was there, probably about maybe a month total, because we were always doing workups and getting ready to go.

And I had a really good career. I started as E-1, and by that time I left my duty station, I would have stayed, but they didn't have a billet for a second class petty officer.

So I had to go and end up in San Diego. I'd gone from anyone to third class petty officer, and I was so far above what I expected that I could do. I mean, I was really kind of in the wrong crowd when they came into the that.

So that gave me a lot of perspective and atomic leadership. And I'm very grateful for those days. That's that was my beginning. There. Thank you very that.

Does that answer your question? Absolutely. I'm getting that picture of the of the story of the young boy being inspired by the Jets going above, and how that must have felt when you first went to the Navy and tell us what happens next after the Navy.

What was life like? And, you know, how did we end up or some some of the pathways that led you to this place here today? I've always had problems with depression and it kind of cycled in the Navy.

I was so on all the time and kind of like an alert mode all the time. I would work out and stuff, but I didn't really take care of myself mentally as much.

I eventually I got an ultimatum from the Navy, stop drinking or pack your bags. And I did. So I did take the stop drinking route and then introduced me to Alcoholics Anonymous, and that really helped me a lot.

Many, many awesome adventures. Got to go to see Seattle, San Diego, two world assemblies, which was just out of this world. You know, it's like 60,000 people in recovery and they're all just having a blast.

We were at the, San Diego Convention Center up on the second floor, and we were dancing. There's so many people up there. The floor was actually starting to go like this, and stuff was on the stage, went up and down and they had to call us down a little bit.

And that that really helped me a lot. I met some wonderful people there. Well, I was in the Navy. My wife, she had our boy, she was pregnant. She hadn't had that.

And when that happened, I just I remember teaching a class on all systems. We were about to do a major inspection for airframes. We had all the engines in our squadron.

So part of that was teaching everybody about the power plants and the fuel systems. And at the same time, I knew that my ex-wife was flying out to San Diego airport while I was giving the lecture, and I finished it.

But when I walked out, it was like I broke and I couldn't think clearly. I didn't know which side I would get directions to go work on the starboard or port side by, and by the time I got out there, I know which side of the airport.

So I told my vision officer about what was going on, and then he said, okay, well, we'll get you some help and have been working for interim. So I ran that for a while and the depression got really bad.

And to the point where I tried to commit suicide a couple times and kind one time I just came out of the other time I knew that I was really going down, and I kind of chickened out and called my sponsor and ended up at the hospital.

And the Navy decided that they that it would be better for me to take an honorable medical discharge that continued. So I was let go honorably, that I was let go after that.

It was kind of like everything was in slow motion. You going from working on a flight deck when it's extremely choreographed, extremely high tempo to just slow motion, there's no more of that.

That dance that goes on and no more strict routine and, you know, no more challenges like that. So I really didn't know what to do with myself when I got out.

And through Alcoholics Anonymous, I met another person in the program that worked for Qualcomm, and he's a hardware guy. He'd build the stats that the trucks use to.

They used to track the trucks that would be going on Interstate, and he was very knowledgeable about that. And while I was in the Navy, we went from doing the bits math forums, which were man hours and supplies and that sort of thing, and there'd be like a whole bunch of like seven copies or something to the computer.

And that just scared the Jesus out of me. But I had another guy in the squadron who loved computers because you could look at pictures and play games, and it's like, no, man, you got to check this out.

So I started to learn about computers through him, and then I kind of self-taught after that. And then with my friend who worked at Qualcomm, he was really in hardware and I was really in software.

So we kind of back and forth at each other. So I ran a, tech business for a few years, and then I worked for a place called Aces. What we did was we worked for the city of San Diego, like the senior homes.

I help them with a program that was windows based. We used a DOS based program way, way back then. And the DOS program, it would call people up in the beginning, answer the phone, it would flag them, and then the senior center would call them and check up on them.

We were implementing a beta, testing it and then rolling it out and training the the people who did not like change how to use the things. So that's the kind of stuff I was doing.

And, I was working in a company called Advanced Windows Technology. There was a computer, windows. We were actually putting windows in and taking all of that, and it was the most fabulous job.

I worked with a carpenter who was a history teacher, and he'd just rather be out, put windows in and teach history. So it was just really fun to be around and work with.

But they didn't put me on the books and I'm like, okay, I can't, it's just too risky. You could get hurt. So I quit and I worked for a telephone company for a while, and then they called back and said, hey, we really need you.

We'll put you on the books, come back. And so I did. And about two days after that, we were working on an emergency medical doctors house in sunny California.

And it was a big round house, and it was like cursed or something because they had to get a crane to get the sliding glass door windows in. And things kept going wrong, and everybody went to lunch.

But this new guy and me, and we're upstairs and he is putting the window and I'm pushing the window up. So on the second story, is putting the the caulking on it, getting it ready.

Well, you got some cocky notice and every. So we grab a towel and he went over like that and hit the window. And I fell backwards up the ladder. Two stories and a ladder.

And like this pile of dirt, it was going like this. I landed like that. So all the energy was released through my left knee. My tip and my right foot.

They both just kind of exploded. But luckily there was a doctor sunning herself in the backyard, so help was really close. So that was a ten year recovery from that, and it involved a lot of painkillers.

You know, I think at one time I was up to 240mg of OxyContin a day, which is just unheard of. I was like a walking zombie that weighs 300 pounds. It was a mess.

And another person in the program to help me find the South Beach Diet. You know, I lost 100 pounds on that diet. And then the next evolution was to start working out at the gym.

And I met a trainer named Mike for Jackson, who's a master trainer, and he got me so excited about kinesiology and how that all work that I kind to training myself, which was yeah, that was pretty cool.

And then I moved out here and still the depression would come back and it was like over time I would be spending more time depressed than it was out of it.

And I tried all kinds of drugs and therapies and nothing worked. Or they worked for like three months and they just stopped. So I remember coming in to seminars the first day and I had no expectations.

I was like, okay, I the doctor said, try it out, okay, I will. And I'm sitting there in the waiting area and I see this drug come blasting in a chipper, you know, and I'm like, wow, she's pretty chipper.

Maybe this works. I know, and I'm very chipper. So I get it. Work. But that's got to be. Yeah. It's so beautiful to hear the missing pieces of your puzzle, of your story.

And there's so much more richness to what I know about you today and through what you just shared, and also the the impression of your first entry to me.

I'm always very curious about that. When patients come in through the doors like, you know, they can either see it and say, oh, this is weird, or this is where am I?

Or what is it? It was a beautiful, vibrant. So Tom in there and so peaceful. Yeah. That was very nice. Yeah. Not like the sterile environment that you usually get.

And then you you gave us a three star review, do you remember? Right. Right. Yeah. It was because I was trying to be honest. I don't believe this place.

And it's something to like to be determined. And I haven't written the last one yet because it's so long now. Maybe I'll get. I hope I'll cover some of that here.

But my God, it's so. Much. I did laugh at that, you and I, when I saw the review, Cindy, my practice manager, showed it to me and I said, oh, he's wondering what's going on here?

And is this real? Is this for real? Is this real? It's going to work. Is this, you know, to be determined is TBD and love the know? I was trying to be honest with everybody because I got good vibes.

Yeah. And the type of person coming in and, and then the other thing which was a little bit scary, but I have a background that involves some psychedelics.

So I like them, you know. Yeah. I believe the mistake that I made with psychedelics is I didn't have a guide. They're sacred and they need to be treated as are sacred.

And in my past history with them, there is something to explore, to change the way I felt. And here it goes so much deeper. You're actually rewriting your past with a perspective that can make it so much better.

Yeah. Like first ketamine. Can I talk about that? Yes. Of course. Okay, so the first ketamine experience I had, my mom was she had been suffering from dementia for about ten years and had gotten really bad.

And she was now in the intensive care, etc. hospital in Roseville. And, you know, I couldn't look at her. It was like she had this translucent mask on.

She was way under there, but she wasn't there anymore. So the way I dealt with that was I sat with her and she loved Frank Sinatra. So I put Frank Sinatra on every time I came in my first experience, you know, while this was going on, first experience this in my journal, and I'll read it to you.

So let's get first gay experience. My dog Oliver, by my side. First I followed the sounds. Then I had a drifting in and out experience, kind of, dissolution or disorientation.

Then I was dancing with my mother and I wasn't dancing with her physically yet, but I could see these green and white chakras. And we were there shining and kind of dancing with each other.

And I went, what a wonderful experience. The experience after that I was like, on, I'll show you the picture, here we go on this big pile, the mechanical, the the, the, the mechanics of everything in the universe.

And I had looked back and I had these giant wings made of flesh on my back. And I thought that was pretty interesting. And then I saw my mom and I flew up, and I grabbed her hand, and we were flying and dancing around the universe and in the cosmos.

And I'm like, I wouldn't have believed it unless I'd actually gone through that experience. So I just felt like, if you're going to say goodbye to somebody that's already not there anymore, what do you do?

How does this work? How was I able to do this? So I got a lot of it. I got really curious. Yeah. So Candy made me very curious. So I started reading all these books and trying to figure stuff out.

That was my oh, two experiences. I believe you have a curious nature. Anyways, and just from your journey, of all the types of work that you've done and how you really enter into different careers, different ways of thinking, only by your curiosity.

And I really think that curiosity invites that new way. Neuroplasticity. Self-reflection really gives us so much more insight into being out of the box stepping.

And I have always been out of the box, and it's not always been a good thing. I think. That's. Because it doesn't fit right in the normal societal norms that, you know, people go by.

So it's been and I don't think I really get expressing that I'm getting a lot better. But, you know, I wasn't really good to. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask you about some of these books that you've been reading.

Okay. Sure. Yeah. Just because as Alia was saying, your life journey, it feels like you've lived many lifetimes already. And just the different, you know, the different stages.

And I got so much of, you know, your heart kind of just how, you know, there's heartbreak there in your story. There's recovery there, there's community there.

I love that image of the the floor. I just you guys jumping on the, you know, dancing on the floor. I run at least like 5000 people at least. What a what a journey and how much I really appreciate you saying that.

You know, everybody who comes to this ketamine therapy, you know, their skepticism. It's like, is this ever going to work? Or, you know, we come to it with having maybe lost hope in recovery because, as you just described, this journey is long and arduous and how kind of we can step into curiosity and reclaim some of the magic of being human.

I mean, of course, there's this kind of heart opening. There's just kind of like this wonderful discovery that you can go into. And I am just curious as to seeing. Yeah.

Who are the people you're reading? What are some of the things that are connecting and making sense right now, because you've embarked on this part of the journey?

Well, Carly, I'm going to do the first doctor that really my interest in, in recovery. There were a lot of people that would talk about his philosophy, and I thought those were very relevant and and applicable, you know, but I read his autobiography right after I'd gotten out of the treatment center while I was in the Navy, and I didn't I wasn't able to piece together a lot of it.

There was, you know, it's from Dennis. There's there were language issues and then the time issues, the way that people talked. And I didn't really put it together until I started reading the book.

That was the Psychonauts Encyclopedia, volume one and volume two. And it starts with Freud and then the The Way Forward. And young worked together, and then they had kind of a disagreement.

Freud was kind of like everything is sex, and young was, well, it's spiritual. And so they both went up in their little camps, kind of like AA meetings.

You don't agree with it? Start your own, get about God and go, and that's kind of the way psychiatry has. They they've worked together. Then they've gone out on different avenues and then, you know, you have like, you have behavioral this, you have cognitive this, you have spiritualists.

And in a way, they all that, you know, the problem is it's kind of like church, you know, they're all talking about God. And in church anywhere in the world, if you look at the progression, it's the same, but you have an interpretation.

More people say if you don't sign our version, you're going to go to hell. And I just could not buy that, you know? And I think it's the same thing with psychiatry.

It's more like, what is your heart telling you? What is your heart telling? That's that's kind of what you need to follow. And then I saw the how powerful psychedelics could be when they were used sacredly and used correctly.

And then the environment was set up so that people could recover in them and find themselves. And it's really like handing somebody a key. There you go.

If you use this key, you have a chance. We're going to set up the conditions for you, use a key. And if you were willing to grow, you're going to go somewhere.

And I just that amazing. It really did. So that's, all. That's my favorite book. Yeah. Wow. What a great metaphor. You're such a great storyteller. I see these images as you're talking.

Yeah, I think you were referring to a way of the cycle, not a volume one and two by Stan Groff. Is that. Correct? Exactly. This. Really? Yeah. That's a great book.

I still listen to a podcast or. Yeah, podcasts on YouTube. But yeah. Tell me a little bit more now. I guess from your perspective, as you look back, what did ketamine treatments or even the treatments that you saw with therapy and even or even transcranial kind of magnetic stimulation?

If you want to talk about that, how has that changed your thoughts and feelings? Because I often get asked this question on the intake. Is ketamine going to change me?

Is it going to make me crazy? Is it going to am I going to to one? First patient asked me, is it going to change my personality? And I was going to say in my head, of course it will.

But I instead said no, I don't think so. But that's a great question. I mean. That's a hard one to answer. It is a hard one to answer. So how has ketamine changed you?

Your thoughts, your feelings, your personality? What has ketamine changed for you? And the key that you used to get to where you are? One of my intentions was to rewrite the trauma in my past.

Before I spent a year doing Headmaster work with my last therapist and trying to go back as far as I could. You know, so I was able to to my body release a lot of trauma.

But as I did that, more stuff was coming up and one of the things I had a really hard time when I was in school because I was educationally handicapped, but I had a pretty good vocabulary.

So it's kind of like he's a retard. That's smart or something. I don't know, it was really confusing when I go to try to read a page and not skip half a page.

Never happened or I would get it. You know? And one of the things I did when I was in first grade, I was a Disney kid, you know, the way I viewed the world was you grew up to be the hero you were, and you saved the maiden.

Then you got married, then you lived happily ever after. That's just that's what they said. So that must be what is real. So I make up all these stories in my mind, and that's kind of where my head was at.

And when it came to doing the academic part, the clinical part of it, I couldn't put it together. I had no idea what I was really looking at, and I was really scared.

So what time and what I figured out to do is like, okay, what I'm going to do, and I did this was I went up to a kid's paper and it turned his assignment and erased his name and put my name on it, which is a terrible thing to do.

But that's what I did. And I ended up in the principal's office. Of course, I got one of my children and experiences when I was going for my attention was to go and rewrite the narrative of my past traumas, and all of a sudden, I was standing in that first grade classroom in front of a counter with those papers, the assignments all stacked up.

Not in a dream. I was there. I looked out the window and I was in Whitney Elementary School looking at the kindergarten playground. And when I looked back, I was looking at those papers.

And in front of me, that kid's name, my name came up the paper and the kid's name went back on it, and bam, I came up. Next meeting. I want an eraser. I want to think about it.

It was real. I mean, it was absolutely real in my mind. That's what happened. And I realized at that point that not only is it possible to go back and change certain things, I can go back and totally rewrite it, you know?

And the important thing is that my intention, which is my motives, you know, what I want to do is pure and true, not some less important thing. You know, I'm not in if I'm trying to do it, to get an agenda out of it, it's not going to work.

I'm going back for a pure reason. The true reason. Then there is something in the collective consciousness that will guide me to that. When that's the time to do it, it is what it is, you know, with that stuff.

But that's what happened. And I'm like, wow, I can really do this, you know? I don't know how it works. I don't know, it's going to happen when it's going to happen now it's going to happen.

And I know if I go in, I set intentions to get better. They're going to happen. And so it's going to happen as there will be times when I have a ketamine experience and synesthesia always happens.

And that's when you're you're seeing it through your ears. So what your ears are hearing, you're wearing your your mask and you're seeing colors and patterns and shapes.

And I'm seeing sometimes it's like caricatures or cartoons, like all these like cards that are people. And I'm going, you know, going through this thing and winding around kind of stuff like that.

And it won't make sense and I'll be okay. Well, that was really interesting. And music could be anything. But then within the week after I had that ketamine journey, these coincidences start happening.

I start noticing things that connect synchronicities. I think that's what they're called, and that's amazing. You know, it's like also now meet somebody that's talking about autism.

Get me to the next, that I need to be in my recovery. Like, for example, I have to be I have to have somebody drive me for a can therapy. Right. And my my doctor kind of lab goes on.

Sorry about that. And I'm like, well, yeah, you are, but this is a big problem. How am I going to do this? And then my next door neighbor goes, oh, I would love it.

Right out of the blue I just mentioned it. She goes, oh yeah, I'd love to take you. And so she did. And through the majority of all my treatment, she's driven down there and she's an artist.

So she'd be working on her art. You know, she draws well, I'm doing my therapy, and then we'll go get lunch and go home or something. But stuff like that, those are the kind of synchronicities I'm talking.

Yeah. Amazing. There's definitely, you know, we say science that you don't understand is magic. Well, it's magical. It's I love that I'm getting the sense that your mechanical mind, your ability to understand kind of how things work and putting them together and that constant curiosity is really helping me, you know, and I think our listeners, to really understand this is an unlock this is, opening lock of our capabilities is not all patients have this level of recognition that they have the ability to go in and their intention, you know, you just said about the clear intention, if the intention is clear, then everything will come together.

I can trust it. The right thing happens. And that is just so profound because I think not everybody finds their way to that place. And I think it's that combination of your curiosity, your kind of willingness to explore and kind of think outside the box and really kind of question yourself like, is this true?

Is this real? Can I confirm it? How does this work? What do I have to do to optimize this? All right, let me learn some more. Let me do more of the thing.

And before you know it, you're cooking with gas. And I get a lot more questions. Then I start when I start. I love that, I love that, and just in a year, in just a year, you've gotten to just, you know, almost of kind of flipping the script on your own narrative going, here's the narrative until this point, and then here's the narrative.

I get to tell about it and learn from it. And even the trauma I've lived with now is is something I can. You know, just what you said about rewriting.

That's such a clear way. Like your psyche said, I wish I hadn't done that. Now I understand why, and I've been carrying it for so long. Let me let it down.

And what's the best representation of that? Is in the in the visual. Erased that your name out and put the other boy's name back and he presto. Your psyche is like. It's like it never happened.

The trauma right. It's like, all right, it's been released. And I think I'd like to point out, when you first started telling about rewriting your history, this is not about rewriting, but envisioning it in that moment.

So that's a really good way to say that, too. Yes. I mean, there's so many versions of what you describe that can be understood. And I imagine this boy standing there with holding the papers, having two thoughts.

One, I'm going to do this. I'm going to write my name on it. And who cares, you know. And the other thought that, hey, I don't need to do this is not right.

It's not my work, you know. But what we recall later on after the act has been made is that one thought and not the other thought. That was I also had that thought that.

So that juxtaposition of two different, you know, ways of doing things, the way of the cycle. Not right. Going back into psychologically, where were you in that moment and learned from?

What did you learn coming back in that you are not all that I agree. Yeah. It's kind of like having any third glasses. Yeah. Yeah. And as an adult to.

And I mean there's an ability here to time travel in some ways. I mean, what you just said is you're standing there and you're looking out the window and you're right there.

It's an experience. So your entire body, this is not just I'm imagining this or I'm making this as a scene. I'm actually in the scene. I'm actually going through it emotionally and physically, and something in that is so deeply healing that I'm transformed.

And maybe that. Wasn't the decision point. I got to choose very serious. And it's for my effect, I guess. Was a better choice. You know, I, you know, like, as a pediatrician, as I'm hearing your story, you know, as a, as a child who was struggling to read and wasn't able to, you know, there's just not a lot of recognition of the challenges of, you know, being smart as you said, and yet having maybe some academic difficulties, maybe in reading that were not addressed and how desperate that can feel, you know, like that boy making that decision at that moment did it only because he was pushed that far and how as an adult, we can source that self-compassion towards that boy and be like, that's all right, buddy.

It's it's okay, it's okay. You know what? I would have done the same thing when I was younger. Oh, I wonder. Different folks or. You know, Wizard, I love this.

This is fantastic. I can't wait to hear how you're doing it. I want to see under the hood here and see what what the techniques are. What what's, What's happening? Yeah.

So let's ask that question. That an ask question that is in is how do you set an intention. What is your technique to getting to that true and clear intention that is so pure by nature that it will result in when it's going to result.

But how did you prepare? You know, I had a sponsor that was an engineer and everything he built was always crooked. I couldn't tell, but he would always say, it's crooked.

You know, he and he was extremely intelligent, you know, really smart guy. And he would talk to people after the meetings. He would see the guy with the deer in the headlights look, and you would just talk to him, you know, and be very knowledgeable and all.

But one of the things he told me was, above all, do no harm. That's a very important principle, because when I adopt that, what that means to me is that I need to think about how my decision is going to affect not just me, but the people around me, even the small ones.

So when I go to have an intention, that's kind of where I approach it. Is it going to be beneficial for me and not hurt people that are around or anybody on earth for that matter?

So it's a pure intention and it's put out in the right way which base? It has a lot of power. I think. Yeah, that that would be what I do get help. Is that right?

Do you write to your journaling practice or what? How do you get these words to kind of make sense? About what about these images and pictures and things that you're getting?

How do you put them to words to kind of, you know, do are your daily journaling or do you do morning pages? Do you do. All the happy when it's important?

I'll write it down kind of guy that's turning mine to I'm going to write it every day. I'm right. Yeah. So I do. Is that about intention still or. Yeah, I feel like, you know, sometimes when we write, especially by hand.

And I've seen that you do, your writing by hand. There's such a process. And we talk about this in narrative medicine, where sometimes we are just kind of taking notes.

You know, when we're sometimes writing, it's like by hand. It can feel like what's flowing comes from a different place from from a higher place. And that's always a fascinating, you know, kind of place to be.

Because, yeah, to go from being a non journal or I only have to write it down when I want to. And so many of our patients struggle with this, that I love the process of writing.

For me, writing has always been kind of like this, you know, it's like. A little weapon here that I'm about. There you. Go. I haven't started yet. Oh my gosh, I'm excited for you.

I can't wait to hear because, that is one of those things. It's, it's it really gets at what that's about. The spiritual aspects of this process that we have that we all possess, which is writing and art and creativity and all the ways in which we can express ourselves.

And I'm just curious as to what your process has evolved into or how it's evolved. So you are not too much of a journal or and what are you doing now and how are you?

Yeah, bringing in The Artist's Way and things like that. This whole thing is the intensity of this process is really blown my socks off. I mean, it's like nothing I've ever experienced before.

And it's it's global. I mean, when I say that, I mean that it affects every cell of my body, every part of me. And it's bigger than that. It affects my neighbors, my community, the world.

That's how big it is. Yeah. So I'm trying to learn how to listen to my heart. The quiet voice. I always know when it's not because a loved one is like, you know, it's really loud.

The quiet voice, very subtle. And sometimes I'll have an intention and then I'll change it because the the heart is just came up with something else. And I don't always get it right, you know.

But I'm trying to learn how to do that and that. That's big. I think that's a I think if somebody was to do that like that, then they could expect something.

It's not going to be nothing because this universe cares enough about us and God is with not you know, I don't know is everybody has a different aspect on that, you know, and it changes back and forth.

But being truthful to yourself, myself is the biggest part is okay, this is what my heart's saying. This is what I need to look at. I mean, I could say something else, but do I want to get well?

I mean, am I focusing on my recovery from depression, or am I trying to finagle and manipulate my way out of something? In the past when they're both there, they are.

And the one with the ego is never it never works. It makes bad karma. Miss work Dharma. Yeah. Well, you started the podcast really talking a little bit about doing psych.

Not psychedelics, without therapy, without facilities, and without a guide. And I have to highlight this because this is important. There's a lot of talk in ketamine treatment platforms about the combination of ketamine and psychotherapy, and the combination being so important to some and the evidence.

More recently, there's a paper released on there's no benefit. There's no evidence that therapy with ketamine or psychedelics shows any better effect or better result or better outcome in terms of treatment of depression, anxiety, early treatment.

Yeah. What would be what would be your opinion here? Because we do this I do this work every single day and I cannot even. Imagine heart attack. Yes, I can imagine people doing this kind of work.

The work that you just described, the work that you really with all the intentionality without facilitation, you know, not being left alone in the room without, you know, that setting that really allows one to explore those inner places, this inner.

Corner, you're not left alone in the room? No, no. But, what would be your opinion? And in terms of doing this with therapy, what has that been experience been like for you with the facilitation of the setting versus, again, having no no therapist in the room.

And that does happen. I was going to try this to the best of my ability is kind of like a Hail Mary pass. So my attitude I think and that's I think the attitude is very important.

A patient to go in and be willing, that's the key is willingness to try. And there's people that aren't there. Unfortunately there's people that just shut down.

It's not going to happen and they won't let it happen. Those people get out. I really don't believe they well, my experience and I've had a few with different doctors and different psychiatrists, is a lot of doctors.

They're highly invested in those situations to the point where it us. It kind of warms myopic environment towards anything new. So they're right. And and those are probably the guys that hurt people.

I don't know. But I think that's dangerous. And I think you can set studies or statistical. Right. So you can set the numbers up anywhere you want. And what I'm saying is that you could set the study up to fail or to get that's been done.

It was done in your biology. It's been done in medicine. It's been done a lot. I mean, definitely, but I think I want to paraphrase a little bit here.

You know, when we talk about the study, I definitely think that part of this question is about the difference between, you know, when you kind of did mention that doing the psychedelics back in the day, when it wasn't done, kind of with a therapeutic intent, right, versus no. You know, what did I do?

I won't take enough drugs. So I see them. Right? Right. They never. Work. And so you're noticing that differences when it's with that true intention versus the intention of just having fun.

And that's a different things. Nothing wrong. Right. And there's something that's much more regimented about it that's really important. The rituals that we have in traditions are extremely important.

Every religion has their traditions and their rituals and even, you know, like medicine man, you go back to Native Americans. They don't just take the drug, they do a whole thing to prepare themselves.

There is timing and there's astrological things involved. There's community things involved. There is is so encompassing, the things that make up those rituals and their community rituals.

They're not individual thoughts they have been living. This is what they do. And so it works and it works. And the same with Christianity, same with Buddhism, same with shamanism, all that stuff.

But you need to look at in Christianity, the wafer is Christ's body, the wine is Christ's blood. And that's not a metaphor, that's a spiritual reality.

And I'm saying with Christianity, because that's the audience is probably going to look at this the most. I mean, it's the first of audiences going to see it.

If you look at Native Americans, you look at Indians, you know, you look at any society. They're going to have a community that has a shaman or a religion to heal, and the community is trusting that person to do that.

And it's taken extremely seriously. And I think that any study that does not include those aspects is falling way short. They're not going to hit it. They're going to miss it by models.

So that's you know, that's what I think. That's so well-put I totally agree with you. The studies are so devoid of that kind of that, that context of healing that you're talking about.

Right. And that's what this I think they showed is that, you know, they gave one cohort ketamine and then one cohort ketamine with that extra added psychotherapy.

And then you put the numbers together and it's like, oh, it's a wash. Well, yes, it's a wash because both conditions are, you know, not optimized. Oh, they're so.

Built from the beginning. It's kind of yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so we're I, I totally believe that the we're not able to, you know, see like you, you have a data set and then we haven't really looked at the individuals in this data set and seeing how different they are.

Because I think that's what we're learning here as being practitioners of this is it's going to be really hard to prove this by the numbers because everybody is so different.

Everybody's healing journey is as individual as they are. It's like a fingerprint. No two are alike. And so how we're going. To have to really come up with a way to quantify it that works.

Yeah. Something of that nature. And I think that's yeah. That's that's kind. Yeah. Yeah. My friend in my getting that's an it. We've got to have a have a way to quantify it.

So I'm wondering as we're looking at this and we don't have to solve that problem right now. But like how do you quantify it for yourself. What are you seeing that's changing within you that you know, on that on a personal level for you?

That and I think that that's what I ask my patients and like, how is your life changing? You know, what has shifted? Because that's the information that's really important here.

I agree, you know, that's what needs to be put into the data sets and it needs to be followed very closely, not with just two. You know, you need a whole group and a community, and that that would give it a little bit of, I think, where it would be more valid that way maybe, you know, this book, I love this one right here.

Oh my goodness. And yeah, when I was growing up, my doctor lived two houses down for me Doctor Newberger. And I remember when I had strep throat or I was that he would come and he would make house calls, he'd see me and for other stuff I'd go into his office.

But he knew me, he knew I played with his songs. We hung out together. This is a return to that. And I think we need as a society to do that. That's very, very important because what's happened in the last few decades is we don't have doctors sitting around, we have technicians.

We're like a machine, you know, it's like, I mean, I'm really good at fixing computers. You're really good at fixing bodies. You're saying no to machines and totally different, you know, is you need to know.

And that's one of the things I really love about cinema is you start by getting to know the person and listening and providing a way for that person. Kind of like building up the structure around that person that he can use, or she can use to recover.

Modern medicine doesn't do that. And and that's why I think that's why we're getting that instead of solutions. It really is mind, body, soul. And if you don't have those together, you're not going to get things done.

And I'm we're such a hurry now. We're in such a hurry. We move so fast. You know I can't keep up. Yeah. It's like okay. So you said beautifully said. And I think you're hitting something really deep here, which is that things are moving so fast right now that we don't have the luxury of the pace at which this current health care system is going to.

We we don't have the resources to treat all the all the people who are, you know, suffering in this way. And the quicker that we can get to this transformation, the tools, the interventional tools.

And I really look at ketamine as an interventional tool only too. Right. And I and it's it's just as effective, you know, when we, you know, put any other kind of infusion intervention, you know, molecule that induces rapid change.

And this rapid change as you're saying, is mind, body, soul. And what we're suffering from is the disconnection of the three. Exactly. I agree with that 100%.

We are disconnected from it. We have those receptors in our mind. Our brain comes equipped with ketamine receptors. It's like it has DMT receptors. You know, it's not like this is boring to us.

This is a part of us and it's useful. But we we are this nagging, efficient collection of enzymes and chemicals and reactions and different life forms all within us.

And one of the things that's really interesting is that Doctor All is doing this DNA growth therapy, and that's where to start. That's exactly you know, I believe that's exactly where you start, because what's happened over time is they've gotten all these impurities.

Our lifestyle, the way we think, the way we do, the poisons, the stuff that we're around all the time has changed us. And it's not healthy, you know, and a start is this model of mind, body because that's who we are.

We're mind body. And so, you know, I and I'm so grateful that you guys have the vision to do that. That's amazing. And I hope in five years they're everywhere, I really do.

I don't know what your vision is for shamans, but now I really I really hope it grows. Here help a lot of people. And thank you. And that's why we're having this conversation to really share to the experience you as a patient as as healers.

And that third space between the two. What heals between us? You heal. We heal with you. You heal, your neighbor heals with you. It's so much bigger and broader than just a prescription pad than, you know, than a procedure.

It's like a smile. It's contagious. This is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smile is contagious. Yeah. I can feel a certain smile, right? Yeah. And I'm feeling that.

Return to joy. A return to empowerment. Even that when we align. Empowerment. National government, when we can reclaim ourselves because we feel so disempowered in this everyday reality because of the way it's structured.

And yet we are so powerful. It's like that, you know, Hanuman, the monkey god, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. What's up? And this is run, run run run run run run run.

So yeah, yeah. We're kind of in that moment where we've forgotten or we've been made to forget, or we've been so steeped in the poison that we have absolutely lost touch with our way back to that, that we are so powerfully.

That's probably exactly where we're at right now. But I think we have a young generation. What I've been noticing is our children are getting more attuned and they're more intelligent.

I think I that's just my opinion, you know? But if you put out good energy, you're going to get that back big time, especially from the children. Yeah.

You know and that's the shift that's happening. I think that's happening. And there's an old school, the old guard that's so proud of letting go of power and money and change period.

You know, likes change. It's incredible. It's the only constant in the universe. Change. Yeah. And it's happening. I just wish it would happen faster.

Yeah. Well like I said yeah we're in the hard part. We're in the difficult part. But I really am with you in the, I think what we're noticing in this new generation is a real return to that, knowing yourself that having that relationship with your true voice and authenticity and not taking a story that's been made for you, but writing your own story.

And I think those are some very important messages that I think we're leaving our audience with today is the. Like, putting seeds down. Yeah, seeds. And you've done just that today, Richard, I'm so excited to have had this conversation with you.

Thank you very. Much. Thank you. And and I'm going to, you. Know, order them in tandem in a and grow. That's exciting. That's exciting. And I'm going to conclude here with one thing that I've learned about you today, Richard, is that you have great timing and your next career.

You have great timing in your humor and your seriousness in your realism in your humanism. You have great timing in your next career. Stand up comedy.

Oh, you have your story teller to make your story to Mike. Okay. All right. That's talk. You know what? Once I get over that fear that I'll do it. There you. Go.

Number three. I will be. There. I will be there. Laughing will be there, I think. Yeah. I really enjoyed this. You're Absolutely. You wear it so lightly and so gently, and I think there's such a wisdom in just the way you've delivered your story today.

So thank you. Thank you for tuning in to Doctor Talks. We hope today's episode has enlightened and inspired you on your path to optimal health. Each day is a new opportunity to make choices that empower your wellbeing.

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