Full Transcript Introduction and Guest Background 0:06 Welcome to the Doctors Making a Difference podcast, where we help physicians to be empowered with the tools they need to successful in medicine, 0:13 in finance, and in life. 0:15 Join us as we highlight doctors and other professionals around the world who are making a difference. 0:26 I am pleased today to welcome Dr. 0:28 Scott Elner. 0:29 Dr Elnar, Scott has given me permission to call him by his first name. 0:33 He is a surgeon and an author and has had this really interesting journey. 0:37 I think you're going to find this conversation fascinating as we talk about his journey and maybe some insights and wisdom for those of us that are in 0:45 the medical community as physicians. 0:46 So Scott, would you mind introducing yourself to our audience? 0:49 Tell us a little bit about yourself. 0:51 Yeah, thank you, Peter, for having me on. 0:53 It's a privilege and honor for a little bit. 0:55 The background of me is just, you know, I kind of grew up as this California surfer in the Malibu area. 1:02 And, is it UCLA thinking, okay, now I'm gonna become a lawyer like my father. 1:08 I was going to be an advocate for environmental laws, gonna save the oceans, save planet. 1:16 I thought August day, you know, the beaches were crowded in the summer in a place called Zuma Beach, and I had a great surf session. 1:24 I was out there. 1:25 And I remember that day was interesting because there was a whale that kind of perched up in front of me. 1:31 It was so close I could see the barnacles on its back. 1:35 Nice. 1:35 As I heading back to my truck, which is parked along Pacific Coast Highway, because I actually was late, I have to get back for a study session I heard 1:45 this awful screeching sound of metal. 1:48 And then the presence of a body rolling up onto the back of my legs. 1:55 I was kind of pinned against the wheel well of the truck. 2:02 I looked down and I could see there was a man who had been hit head on. 2:06 He was on a Harley Davidson motorcycle. 2:09 You know, one of those days people cruising out and a car had crossed over the double yellow lines, struck him, and he happened to just land in this very 2:19 awkward position next to me, clearly in bad shape. 2:24 In the sunlight, you could there's blood coming from his ears. 2:28 And he had these tattoos, and I didn't know at the time, but he definitely had hemorrhagic shock, because his tattoo, the colors were fading in the sun. 2:39 And I don't even know what to do. 2:40 I was 21, kind of figuring out my life, here's this man in a very vulnerable position, he just kind had his arm up awkwardly toward the sky, 2:53 I just kneeled down next to him, held his hand and prayed.
The Highway Trauma That Changed His Path 2:59 Next thing I know, a car pulls over on the side of the highway and this woman jumps out of her car, clearly very composed, 3:10 almost algorithmic. 3:11 She grabs what was an intubation kit from the lifeguard there on scene and intobated the guy right there in the middle of a highway. 3:24 And she saved his life. 3:28 And for me, had this epiphany. 3:31 It changed my direction, it made me realize, and I now knew later on, this was a trauma surgeon. 3:39 it changed direction from going to law school. 3:42 I'd already taken the LSAT, but I pivoted and decided I was gonna go to medical school and find a calling because of that life-changing moment for. 3:52 Me I took the MCAT three times. 3:57 journey to get into medical school and then eventually go on to surgical residency. 4:02 But I did it because it was something inside of me. 4:06 And I'll never forget that, that moment on Pacific Coast Highway. 4:10 Man. 4:10 So do you carry an intubation kit in your car? 4:13 Like when I read your book, the manuscript, I've read that like, man, and I carry a little emergency kit, but I definitely don't have an endotracheal tube 4:20 and an ambu bag and all that stuff. 4:21 It sounds like she grabbed it from the lifeguard station. 4:24 Do you care that's stuff in vehicle? 4:26 No, I have a first aid kit and a pocket knife in case I need to do a surgical airway. 4:32 Right. 4:33 But no, not quite, but probably should. 4:35 You never know. 4:36 Well, I was thinking about that because I have a little stapler and I got some basic stuff because it seems like we're always taking the kids out camping 4:45 and somebody's getting cut and we were trying to take care of it. 4:48 But from a selfless standpoint, that lady drove by. 4:51 She saw it, she acted quickly, and she was able to provide a life-saving maneuver in a timely fashion. 4:57 I'm sure they called the ambulance and all the different things to try to come. 5:01 the guy needed help right then and there. 5:03 And obviously, you know, it's kind of a little blessing. 5:06 You received that moment right there, It's terrible. 5:09 But on the other hand, You realized a bit of what kind a higher calling or whatever it was that would lead you to medicine and become something even more 5:17 than you had envisioned you'd become. 5:18 Pretty impressive. 5:21 Yeah, was really one of those moments. 5:24 I think many of us have this, especially as physicians where we kind look back and just reflect and Unfortunately, I don't know if we do that enough as 5:37 physicians and reflect on all the great things that we, which sometimes kind of leads to the cynicism and the burnout and loss of idealism. 5:46 But there are days where I think of not just that patient that changed my course, but also patients throughout my career that really made an impact on me. 5:56 Kind of who I am, my identity is not necessarily being a surgeon. 6:00 My identity. 6:00 Is really about being. 6:01 A cool person that gets along well and contributes to society and loves my kids and my wife and. 6:09 But, you know, being, a physician is definitely a privilege. 6:15 Yeah. 6:15 Well, and I think I'm glad you said it that way. 6:18 Sometimes it's such an extraordinary thing to do. 6:21 I still think it, you know, in many ways, kind of the greatest profession because you're individually working with people and sometimes in their most trying moments. 6:28 And I shared before we hit record, like I've shared on the podcast, I have been a patient much more than I ever envisioned being a patients in my forties, 6:36 but here it is. 6:37 and i'm so thankful for the doctors that have just totally changed my life. 6:41 So you're right. 6:42 If we lose track of that higher level, the kind of purpose that drives us into medicine, I think it really does lead us more to that moral injury or that 6:52 burnout or just the mismatch between your experience where you are just punching the clock and you doing EMR work and talking to insurance companies and 6:59 doing cases that seem like they're really frustrating.
Patient Care, Mistakes, and Trust 7:02 And yet when you look at the big picture, you say like, Hey, I'm in a place where when somebody needs help, can stop what I am doing and I can help them 7:09 and save their life. 7:10 That's a remarkable, extraordinary skill and we take it as a routine, but it is unique. 7:15 Think about how you felt about that surgeon when were 21 and you watched somebody with trauma training just jump in and saved the day. 7:22 It was awe inspiring. 7:23 It made me feel like, okay, what else is out there that I can really do to impact society, especially somebody who happens to be in their most vulnerable condition. 7:36 try to remember that but I haven't always been good about it. 7:39 I mean there are times when I think all of us as physicians we get frustrated and our in baskets are blowing up in the electronic health record and but 7:49 ultimately it comes back to serving our patient and the gratitude we. 7:54 Especially when they do well and even sometimes when. 7:58 They don't do. 7:59 Well I tell you a story about one patient actually it's her husband that made such a huge impact on me. 8:09 You know, as physicians, I'd be lying if sometimes we don't make mistakes. 8:14 There are medical errors, sometimes surgical errors. 8:18 there was a case where I had a 40-year-old woman, and surgery's never routine, no matter what anyone says, but she had bowel obstruction, 8:26 And I operated on her, got in there, there were tons and tons of adhesions. 8:33 It was very long and tedious operation. 8:37 And I missed a bowel injury. 8:42 So I nicked the small bowel, and I had closed her up. 8:47 In that morning, when I came in around, she was not doing well. 8:52 She clearly was an extremist. 8:54 Had peritoneal signs. 8:57 And it turns out that she is now going into septic shock. 9:01 I quickly had to bring her back, re-operate, fix the bowel But what was so telling about that situation is when I went to talk to her husband, 9:15 who, I mean, this was in New England. 9:17 So I, mean this guy was no nonsense. 9:21 He kind of worked at the, as a longshoreman, kind a scary dude. 9:27 And I explained to him what happened and I said, And the guy just, he kinda put his hand on my shoulder and said, you know what doc, 9:40 kind of in that New England accent, like they don't say the word are, they say chata. 9:46 And he put His hand my shoulders and says, doc I can see this is really bothering you and I just want you to know, I trust you. 9:56 and know you're gonna do everything you can to get my wife through this. 10:00 It was so empowering for me And I'll tell you what, you know, a lot of times we are afraid to admit that we made a mistake or we're afraid say I'm sorry. 10:13 What led me to be comfortable doing that is part of the informed decision making process beforehand and building the record with not only the patient, 10:22 but the husband. 10:24 And I talked about all the potential complications, including, you know, what to expect after surgery. 10:31 Didn't expect this, but he felt like that genuine conversation and taking the time to listen. 10:38 It really helped me and I eventually got her through with, another surgery after that. 10:44 But for me, that was a pivotal moment where, the humanistic qualities of just being able to go to your patient or their family member and say, 10:56 I messed up. 10:57 I'm going to do everything I can without the fear of litigation. 11:01 So it's kind of another life-changing point in my career that helps me navigate sometimes that cynicism we feel. 11:11 Yeah, well, it sounds like you've experienced the same thing I have and others haven't. 11:16 I find that when people are mad, not necessarily on outcomes, if they're mad at you personally, and they say, hey, this doctor didn't care, 11:24 they didn' call me back, didn''t seem to give a hoot about whether my loved one lived or died, then they start thinking about, 11:30 you know, what lawyer am I going to call because I got to make this happen. 11:33 But if you connect with people, some people are going assume no matter what, that's just part of the deal. 11:38 I found that the majority of time when you step aside and they see that you actually really care about the person you're doing your very best and you are 11:46 contacting whatever resources you need to help them or their loved ones get through it. 11:49 Most people, I mean, on the very human level are almost like that guy you talk to. 11:54 Like they want to help you through it too and be like, hey, let's get this together. 11:58 And that's pretty cool. 11:59 You have that guys that experienced such a profound trust in you as a doctor. 12:02 He never really probably met you before or didn't have this long-term relationship. 12:06 and yet he's willing to extend that level of trust for his wife as the person he loves the most. 12:11 That is a real valuable thing when you get something like. 12:15 Yeah, absolutely. 12:16 And, you know, I think we all, as physicians, we have those experiences and that connection we've had with patients or family members. 12:25 I mean, some of the hardest moments in my life when you had to go speak to a family member and their loved one is not going to survive, 12:37 especially in a trauma.
Writing Wipe Out, Rise Up 12:40 It's hard, it's heard, and I don't think our society really understands what many physicians go through when we have to have those difficult conversations. 12:49 Yeah, that's my least favorite thing. 12:51 I guess it is an honor to be there in those moments when you're trying to help people, but I had one just a few weeks ago where a younger guy came in and 12:57 he died. 12:58 That is such a hard thing to go to a family. 13:01 And in this case, cause I live in the area where I grew up and I knew the family, I know the people from way back and to. 13:07 Go and say, Hey, your loved one's not going to make it. 13:09 He's going die. 13:10 That's one of those moments. 13:11 It's almost a reverent moment, but it's so hard. 13:15 All you can do is just try to connect to people on a very human level. 13:19 But I think that threads all the way through medicine, not just in the moments of sorrow and tragedy, but just to say, look, 13:24 hey, I'm a human being and I will connect with you. 13:27 And my favorite patients are the ones that actually I would consider them friends. 13:30 I'd be happy to see them outside of the clinic. 13:32 Don't want them to always ask me medical questions, But i'm happy when I see that and like, Hey, how's it going? 13:37 Because I am genuinely interested in them and they're genuinely interest in me. 13:39 and i do love those connections for sure. 13:44 Oh yeah. 13:44 I've had those experiences and you know, I just kind of let it happen. 13:49 It never fails, especially Thanksgiving when you got to the family in town and your mother-in-law's best friend shows up and she wants to know about this rash. 14:01 Oh yeah, everybody has that. 14:03 I wanted to ask you about one of the themes that you talked, at least I kind of thought it was impactful in your book and maybe we ought to just tell, 14:09 tell us about your books, what it's called first. 14:11 And then I want to kind get into a couple of themes you put in there because I felt they were great. 14:15 So what's the book called and what made you write it? 14:18 Yeah, so it is called Wipe Out, Rise Up, and it really is a metaphor on surfing. 14:27 As I mentioned early on, I grew up surfing and Over my career, I've identified that in a lot of ways, surfing, the art of surfing and the preparation that 14:38 goes into it and actual finding balance and connecting with the ocean. 14:43 A lot it has to do with parallels that we face in different challenging situations. 14:53 Whether it's getting ready for a job interview, whether it is preparing for your boards or even going into surgery. 15:01 And I wrote the book based on a lot of experiences and then tied it into, let's say paddling out. 15:09 You know, before you paddle out, you gotta know your surroundings. 15:12 So you got to make sure you've got the right equipment. 15:14 Should probably stretch and know what the floor of the ocean's like because that'll tell you how the waves are gonna come in, 15:23 the weather conditions. 15:25 And so, yeah, I, wrote a book to talk about lessons in leadership, pushing past limits, you know, experiences where I've gone through failure, 15:35 and then also about sustaining health. 15:40 I think a lot of physicians, we learn a lots about medicine, but do we really learn about health and nutrition, exercise, 15:50 sleep? 15:52 So talk about some of those things. 15:54 Yeah. 15:55 Well, you know, my primary care doctor, right? 15:57 You're speaking my language. 15:58 That's what we're trying to do is keep people out of those kinds of troubles. 16:01 But our bodies break. 16:02 I mean, it's one of the reasons medicine is always going to be a career because these mortal bodies, they love to break and no matter how healthy you are, 16:09 You are going have something happen sometime where you need a doctor. 16:12 One of things in your book that I, if you're willing to share it on this podcast, I thought it was so personal and kind of you to share a time when you 16:21 experienced a pretty low point. 16:22 You know, if you're willing to talk about that, you know when your operating on someone and a relationship kind came to a crashing end and I mean, 16:29 it sounds like a dark moment and somebody out there in residency or in practice is going to relate to something along that. 16:35 If you are willing share that Scott, I would really appreciate that Yeah, I mean, suicidal ideation is something that I think is more common than we realize, 16:47 especially among physicians. 16:51 In actual suicide, it's like 1 in 400 physicians annually. 16:56 And even just this past year, we've had a couple of our physicians in our network here died by suicide.
A Personal Low Point and Seeking Help 17:05 I hit a low point. 17:06 You know, I think you get to a situation where you're not taking care of yourself, you are not eating right, your not sleeping. 17:15 And I had been on call, and I was in a relationship that I thought you know I loved this person, she loved me. 17:24 and i wasn't around. 17:27 i was busy. 17:28 preparing for my career and couldn't go out and party on Cinco de Mayo. 17:35 I was on call dealing with sometimes unpleasant things that happen to come into the emergency department, but that's part of who we are. 17:43 We deal with it. 17:44 It doesn't matter what your background is, who you are, if you're sick or injured, we take care of you. 17:52 And that evening I got a call from the Emergency Department and they said, yeah, unfortunately has a retained foreign body and got to take him to the Owar. 18:07 And just before I'm about to go to Oware, I get a call from my girlfriend. 18:10 She said, you're no fun. 18:11 I want to break up. 18:14 Click. 18:15 Hmm. 18:16 Pretty much just out of nowhere. 18:19 This is back when we had cell phones were the flip phones. 18:24 Calling her back, can't get her. 18:27 Okay, stop. 18:28 I gotta focus, I got to patient, get through the case and then kind of just up the rest of the night and I'm post-call early the next morning, 18:38 still just kind going without processing or thinking. 18:44 And something just inside me said, ''I'm gonna kill myself.'' And I knew exactly where I was gonna go, how I gonna do it. 18:57 I was driving up from San Diego to my parents' home in LA. 19:02 I got a call from a friend who I hadn't spoken to in a while. 19:05 He says, what are you up to? 19:08 I'm like, oh, I am just driving home from work. 19:11 And he's like I've got to tell you about this. 19:12 So I just got back from surfing in Alaska. 19:15 That is pretty cool. 19:18 No. 19:18 It stopped me. 19:29 And, you know, I know people have this feeling, but it's going to get better. 19:36 And we go through these ups and downs and I did get help. 19:40 I opened up, explained what was going on. 19:44 Which was the right thing to do, get therapy and counseling. 19:47 Again, another pivotal moment that I was vulnerable. 19:54 that person calling me and telling me he served Alaska saved my life. 19:57 Kind of an inspired phone call from someone that was your friend. 20:01 And I, you know, when you think about that, I mean, that's obviously very personal and I appreciate you sharing that. 20:06 I know it was a pivotal kind of defining moment. 20:08 You stayed in medicine, and you got the help. 20:11 Again, somebody out there listening to this is saying, hey, down and maybe the only thing that my brain can come up with again and again is end program, 20:21 because I don't know how to continue on. 20:22 And I think it's important that we acknowledge that, especially in a training environment. 20:27 Sometimes we put our mentors on this pedestal and we think, boy, these people never have a moment of weakness and they eat nails for breakfast and stay 20:34 up all night. 20:35 People start comparing themselves and then you feel like there's no win. 20:38 You can never get past it. 20:40 It's a real challenge for us. 20:42 I wanted to ask, as you went through that and as reflected on the course of your career since then, you talked about getting help. 20:48 What advice would you give to someone who says, hey, I'm facing this, or maybe I've got a loved one or a classmate or peer that's experiencing that? 20:56 You know, the easiest thing to do, even though it seems trivial, is ask the person who you think may be experiencing these feelings, 21:07 are you okay? 21:08 Give them the space and the opportunity to open up. 21:13 Obviously do it in a way where they feel empowered to open up. 21:21 What I will say is I felt safe with this person to say, hey, I'm not doing well. 21:29 That's the first step. 21:31 And then make sure you have resources that you know you can access quickly. 21:39 And what we've done recently, particularly with physicians, is we got resources for being able to talk to someone. 21:47 Not necessarily has to be a psychiatrist and it doesn't have to me someone who you fear that maybe you're gonna have your license on the line. 21:57 It's somebody that can just talk you through the situation and then direct you to the right place. 22:03 Having that conversation saved my life. 22:07 And I think if you have someone in your life that you think is angry, upset, miserable, struggling, just ask them, are you okay? 22:22 Because a lot of times we as physicians, the way we deal with that pain is we act out more negative. 22:30 We start to do and say things that are not constructive. 22:37 And I do see that in some of our physicians today run a large medical group right now. 22:43 And if somebody is acting out or behaving badly, I presume good intent. 22:49 and I want to know, are you doing okay?
Empathy, Leadership, and Referent Power 22:52 I don't think that they're a bad person. 22:54 I think what is something going on personally that you're struggling with. 22:59 Yeah, well, like you talked about at the beginning, almost everybody has a story why they chose medicine and it's usually something in that high frame 23:08 of saying it wants to do good. 23:09 I want to help people. 23:11 Most people don't choose medicine to become a grouchy mean person that, you know, it kind of. 23:16 People walk on eggshells around most people really wants to good and so that's a good point when you find someone that has kind of negative Social behavior. 23:24 That's probably the best way to do it is to approach it and say these are probably a person with good intent who is Struggling maybe more than they realize 23:32 and I just have found in my own life Having a peer to talk to helps like I've talked to my family members I talked my wife and you have a lot of people 23:40 in My life that are wonderful and i love but there's nobody that quite gets it like somebody else's walk the walk And so one of my practice partners for 10 years, 23:49 a few weeks ago, I had a question. 23:51 I'm like, hey, you just get to be a life coach here for me for a minute. 23:54 And it's not because I couldn't ask somebody else. 23:56 It's because someone that had walked the walk, he knew, understand he'd been there at 2 o'clock and 3 o clock in the morning and on nights and weekends 24:03 and holidays. 24:04 He and I walked through so many chaotic, crazy situations together. 24:09 When he says, ''I know what you mean,'' I know that he actually knows that's he's been and he understands. 24:13 So I think what your saying, Scott, It actually means a ton. 24:17 If a peer, someone that's kind of in your same circle says, Hey, you okay? 24:21 And give you a safe space to talk and to reflect and maybe to just, come up with a plan of how you're going to manage it together. 24:29 Like that can be really empowering. 24:32 I think what I've learned also as I have become a little bit more mature and gained some wisdom is the power of empathy. 24:41 And just without jumping to the point of having to fix it right away, just the powerful listening and just kind of letting them talk through what's going on. 24:54 Because a lot of times, you know, People will say, oh yeah, I know what you're saying, but I really try to withhold from saying anything or having any 25:05 judgment until they're ready to hear my response. 25:11 I want to give them the space to really share what's going on internally and allow that empathy to build up. 25:18 Yeah, that's powerful. 25:20 One of the other things you talked about in the book was this transition to leadership. 25:25 You were able to gain surgical skills, work in clinical medicine for a long time, and then couple that with some leadership opportunities. 25:33 And you talk a little bit about empathy and ways to actually have not just power based on a position, but power-based on relationship and how you actually 25:43 impact change. 25:43 I'd like to talk us a little bit through that. 25:45 How did you decide to go from full-time surgery, you know, to doing some of the leadership stuff? 25:50 And again, there's a lot of people, a lotta talent in people that are physicians and probably what a, lot a people would make really good leaders on a 25:58 leadership team, but maybe they don't feel like they have the proper training or they understand how to do it. 26:02 So, if you don' mind sharing with us some, some pearls of wisdom on that? 26:07 Yeah, so the, really the The driver for me to go into leadership was because I became very passionate about patient safety and quality. 26:20 And the reason that leadership is so important is when you're looking at improving processes, improving outcomes, you need to be able to influence people 26:30 to modify their behavior. 26:34 Early on in my career, I thought, well, the data shows this. 26:38 Why isn't this person doing this clinical pathway or following this guideline? 26:46 They should just know they should be doing it. 26:49 And what I recognized is that's not leadership by telling someone what to do. 26:56 Leadership is going to them and understanding their perspective and just like people who practice in a rural environment versus an urban environment or 27:09 metro environment, very different. 27:11 And you can expect the same type of practice patterns in those two situations. 27:18 So I went back Did a little bit more training. 27:25 I did a fellowship with the American Hospital Association on patient safety and leadership. 27:30 Really enjoyed it. 27:32 And then eventually I was being asked to do more to run our surgical service line as the vice chair. 27:42 Then eventually take over the leadership of the physician group. 27:46 And it wasn't because I was maybe the most knowledgeable. 27:49 It wasn' because maybe I as the best surgeon, it was because of the ability to use referent power. 27:59 And so the key here is power bases. 28:05 When I in residency, the power that was used, coercive power, fear, intimidation. 28:11 You know, you're gonna do this. 28:12 We're going to, scare you into studying and preparing Well, that only works about 8% of the time is intimidation and fear that type of power. 28:24 The best power aside, there's informational power, or there is expert power and there are people with titles, positional power you know, 28:31 you can be the CEO and say well you got to do this and people will kind of do it but they're not always going to be bought in. 28:41 Referent power That's the power you want. 28:45 And referent power is what will people say about you? 28:50 So if they ask, hey, Dr. 28:52 Crane, he has this amazing podcast. 28:55 You should be on this podcast, you got to check him out. 28:59 That is referrent power that you have, that You've built because of your relationships, because your connections, the way you interact with people. 29:08 And a lot of it may seem like soft skills, but it's not. 29:12 It's really important to get to know people and really understand who they are, what motivates them, and build that referent power. 29:20 And that's what I've learned to leverage to be successful as a leader. 29:25 Yeah, we'll think back to leaders. 29:27 I mean, I think, back leaders in my own life. 29:29 And I, think we probably all can people that I want to follow or think about coaches that you loved, if you know, in sports, 29:35 it wasn't the course of, you, know I've got the position you do it my way or the highway. 29:39 They don't leave a lasting impact, but the ones like you said, Scott, where you say like, Follow that person to the end of the earth because I know that 29:47 they've got my back and they would do it the way I would. 29:49 And they're kind and empathetic. 29:52 That kind of leadership is rare, maybe soft skill, but it has very real world practical applications. 29:59 patient outcomes, too. 30:00 If we're focused on patient safety because somebody that's a non-clinician or someone that is not empathetic comes and says, 30:07 you will do this or else, people will kind of do it. 30:09 But if you say, boy, in Dr. 30:11 Elner's OR, this is how they do, and look at the kind outcomes they have, I want to be like that guy. 30:15 You know, that matters a lot, not just in medicine, but just, Sounds like you've been able to take that empathy and apply it, 30:24 not just in medicine, but in all sorts of leadership. 30:27 And probably good for all of us to reflect and say, how's my leadership, rather than just, I'm the doctor, do what I say to be like, 30:33 okay, well, this is the correct way to get this done. 30:35 But this why, and I'll walk that I willing to do whatever I asking you to, we'll do it the same. 30:43 Yeah, it's funny. 30:44 We've all had patients who, even though you're the physician, they don't always listen. 30:49 They don' always adhere. 30:51 And that's why the physicians-patient relationship is so important and to really understand your... 30:57 I mean, doctors do this well. 30:59 we are great at listening to the patient.We have to, right? 31:03 It's part of our history and physical.And when you develop that relationship, They're going to, for the most part, they're gonna follow the regimen that 31:13 you provide is that treatment algorithm or, you know, how you manage their overall health. 31:20 When it comes to leadership, I found that I was so naive. 31:24 I mean, when you're a chief resident, and you walk around, all your juniors and you got interns and medical students and sometimes PA students walking 31:34 around and, you think you're just amazing and everybody should listen to you. 31:38 And then all of a sudden one day you are an attending and then you become an actual leader. 31:45 Nobody's gonna listen if you don't know how to connect.
Transitioning from Surgery to Leadership 31:50 If you do not know to give them that followership. 31:56 and make them feel like they're part of the team and a major contributor. 32:01 No, that's excellent. 32:02 Thank you for sharing that. 32:04 Another theme on there that, and again, I read this manuscript. 32:07 I encourage everybody to read the book. 32:11 just real and gritty and fun. 32:13 And I mean, it was a good read. 32:15 I, you know, as a fun one, but I one of the things you talked about in there that I kind of relates to this is how do you when it is time to change and 32:23 how to you lean into some of these things that are kind intimidating because you think like, well, this me, part of my identity. 32:30 This is what I trained to do. 32:31 And sometimes people find themselves saying, this isn't filling my cup anymore. 32:34 I'm not, I don't feel I myself satisfied. 32:37 And it's hard to know when, when do you chop off some portion of what your training was or how do. 32:43 Make that transition from one thing to another, because you don' want to give up on what you learned or become less skilled in something. 32:50 Yeah. 32:50 If you're trying to answer a need that your, your body and your life is telling you, you need to switch. 32:55 That's a hard thing, to no when to make that switch and it might be intimidating. 32:58 So what are your thoughts on that? 33:04 So, you know, this may sound just pretty simplistic, but preparation really makes a difference. 33:13 I was getting close to 50. It was at a point where I'd done about, 10,000 operations. 33:22 Loved what I did. 33:22 I was kind of in my stride, kind at the peak of my surgical career. 33:29 But I also was in this new bound area of leadership that was exciting. 33:35 It really became clear that especially in there was one case where it had gone on too long and I had to present to our board. 33:43 There was no way I would leave the OR. 33:51 and leave the patient on the table to go and present to our board. 33:54 So I actually missed that presentation to the board and it really dawned on me that it's going to be too difficult to do both. 34:05 Just too difficulty, especially if I wanted to advance at higher levels of leadership. 34:11 And so it required a lot of reflection. 34:16 I like to write down my goals. 34:19 I do journal every day, and so as I was pondering and getting more and more comfortable with the decision to stop my surgical career, 34:31 I actually had a plan. 34:34 And if you plan out, not just stop to say, on this day I'm gonna stop, but really have a planning of how you're gonna move on to that next phase of your career. 34:45 Just like six years from now, the next phase of my career, I want to do coaching. 34:51 I write this down. 34:52 And if you write it down, it will happen. 35:02 In the book, you talked about kind of leaning into these things that are a little bit intimidating. 35:08 But the idea behind writing it down isn't just to be like, oh, that's an idea, but you make it more concrete and you write it, 35:15 and then you lean into it and say, okay, it's intimidating, I can learn more about it. 35:19 I could practice, find mentors, take classes, whatever it is so that you develop a skill. 35:25 As human beings, we have a lot of plasticity. 35:28 It's hard to know when to change. 35:30 On this podcast, we talk a lot about keeping people in medicine and working, but I think that also involves being a little bit agile, 35:37 a bit mobile to switch your focus and do whatever it is to still continue to make a positive impact and a difference no matter what career stage you're in. 35:46 So how's the experience been? 35:48 You made that switch and did you miss the surgery part of it or are you still doing any surgeries at this point? 35:54 No, I don't have my own practice. 35:55 I'm still licensed. 35:57 Occasionally I was scrubbing to get my fill, but overall my focus and my passion is on leadership. 36:06 And I am very much involved in being a change agent. 36:10 particularly around how do we find opportunities to improve physician workflows? 36:16 How are we going to leverage artificial intelligence and enable that technology to make it easier for us? 36:23 So, you know, that's really what's motivating me right now. 36:26 And also to be a great mentor or coach. 36:30 to a younger generation of physicians who are coming out who went through residency that was very different than maybe you or I, 36:38 where we didn't have work hour restrictions. 36:40 Now they do. 36:41 So how do they navigate working this hard? 36:45 Right. 36:46 No, those are challenges. 36:47 And one of the themes we've talked about on the podcast is try to find a way to leave medicine better than we found it. 36:53 That's what you're doing. 36:54 You're saying, okay, there's a legacy here, but there is leadership and we want to make it so those who come after maybe even have a better experience 37:02 and can do a job of not only taking care of patients but caring for themselves so they don't have to hit. 37:08 rock bottom, you know, so that's great.
Closing Remarks and Podcast Outro 37:10 I've loved this conversation, Scott, I want to kind of point people to where do you have a website or a place where people could follow your work or find 37:17 your book? 37:17 Where would you recommend for people? 37:18 Yeah, it's real easy. 37:20 It's wipeoutriseup.com and I have newsletter there and the book is going to be released on November 18th. 37:31 It's on Amazon, and you'll be able to get it there. 37:35 And I'd love for you all to read it and share your thoughts. 37:38 You know, I never thought I would write a book, but it's something that, at the time, just kind of came to mind. 37:45 It has been fun. 37:46 Been a great experience. 37:48 I'm so glad you did. 37:49 We're recording this on November 4th. 37:51 So when the podcast listeners listen to this here in a few weeks, when it comes live, the book will be out and encourage you to go check it out. 37:58 Again, Scott, I've really enjoyed this conversation. 38:01 I think it's fun and I appreciate you sharing some of both your vulnerable moments and the moments that have taught you and shaped you into becoming what 38:09 you are. 38:09 And so again, thank you for taking time to be a guest on the Podcast. 38:13 Well, Thank you. 38:14 For having me. 38:14 It was wonderful to. 38:15 Yeah. 38:16 Keep in touch. 38:17 Thank. 38:18 Thanks for tuning in to the Doctors Making a Difference podcast. 38:21 And thank you for what you do to help your patients and your community. 38:24 Your work truly helps so many people. 38:27 We produce this content to have the tools you need to stay in medicine and to highlight the amazing work being done by physicians around the world. 38:34 Please note that while I am a physician and many of the guests on this program are also physicians or other professionals, 38:40 the discussions on the podcast do not represent my employer or any professional organizations to which I belong. 38:46 This podcast is for your information and entertainment only, and should not be taken as professional advice. 38:52 You should seek appropriate professional advise pertaining to your own situation. 38:56 Please check out more of our content on our website, DoctorsMakingADifference.com. 39:01 Also, please follow, like, or subscribe on your podcast player or YouTube channel, and give us a five-star rating. 39:07 It really helps to spread the message. 39:09 Finally, if you'd like to be a guest on the podcast, Or if we'd to nominate someone else to a be guest, Please visit the website or email admin at Doctors 39:18 Making A Difference dot com. 39:20 See you next time.
Comments