The Alzheimer’s Mind Hack

Introduction to the Alzheimeru2019s mindset discussion 0:00

What new research is showing is that far from it that we can do things. We can apply changes to our lifestyle. We can adopt mindsets and mental approaches. We can use energy therapies that dramatically affect our health outcomes. And so what I want to counteract is the prevailing view that if you have the ApoGene 3-4 combination or the 4-4 combination, Hello and welcome to the podcast. This week we feature Dawson Church. Dawson is a friend. He is a PhD and this interview that we did was actually one of my favorite interviews of last year's Reversing Alzheimer's Summit.

In this topic, we're going to talk about how negative thinking fuels the buildup of Alzheimer's more than just genetics. You can discover how shifting your mindset can protect brain meditation and emotional regulation, grow your brain's memory, learning centers, and even reverse cognitive shrinkage. We're going to talk about love, connection, community, some of my favorite topics, particularly in the theme of the brain for this year's year of the brain. You know, I just think at this exact moment with everything that's going on in the world, this is the message that I'm most excited to put out.

I've had so many messages of people who watched this interview on last year's summit and felt compelled to reach out to me. because of the nature of the content. And I hope that wherever you are in the world and wherever you're listening from that this resonates for you as much as it did for me when I interviewed him. So take it away, Dawson Church. James, a joy to be here, a joy to be sharing. Yeah, I'm excited. There's so many places we can start, but I guess you've been involved in many different areas related to human health and thriving.

And I guess I just wanted to start by asking you, like, what is it about this Alzheimer's and brain health thing that really gets you and why are you so passionate about this topic and bringing the tools that you've spent your life working on, researching and bringing to the forefront to this particular population? I'm really focused on that because people tend to accept a diagnosis as inevitable. They read statistics like 56% of Americans, for example, are involved in dealing with Alzheimer's in some way, a friend, a relative, a family member, and it sucks them in.

Americans spend about 15 million unpaid hours every year helping people with Alzheimer's. And so it's a huge burden on society. And my father died after a 15 year struggle with Alzheimer's. And I actually have the alpha gene 3-4 combination, which from my early studies in genetics in the 1970s, one of the first genes discovered says you have a strong predisposition to Alzheimer's yourself. So what people tend to do is think all of this is inevitable.

Why genetics are not destiny 2:54

And what new research is showing is that far from it that we can do things, we can apply changes to our lifestyle, we can adopt mindsets and mental approaches, we can use energy therapies that dramatically affect our health outcomes. And so what I want to counteract is the prevailing view that if you have the ApoGene 3-4 combination or the 4-4 combination, if you have a genetic predisposition, family history, If you have a certain lifestyle that if you've got a certain diagnosis that you are doomed to a certain result and that is not at all true.

So that's, that's the big message here. Amazing. Well, let's jump into, to that straight away. And I guess epigenetics is the, is the mechanism by which this all happens. If you had to, you know, meet with someone and talk to them about what you think is like the most important thing for them to know going through this journey. And obviously there's some way that you've had to think through what is the highest leverage tool. Where do you typically think to start with people? I think I'd start in terms of research with the study published in 2020 that was really pivotal in linking negative thinking and positive thinking to Alzheimer's plaques.

And we have really sophisticated scanners at our disposal nowadays. MRI scanners are kind of like the resolution on your cell phone. If you had a cell phone that was 20 years old, it had very, very blurry resolution or your screen on your laptop back 20 years ago. Today, we can measure the activity, the firing of a single neuron. So we have now these high resolution devices. And what these allow us to do is to study the brains of people, not intrusively, including Alzheimer's patients. And what that study in 2020 showed was absolutely stunning.

It looked at the buildup of Alzheimer's plaques, beta and tau plaques in the brain. And it found that there was an association between all kinds of different lifestyle factors and mental factors, and the buildup of those including the Alzheimer's genes. And that was fairly unsurprising that all of these things are affecting the buildup of those Alzheimer's plaques. If you look them under a microscope, they look kind of like, you see this bright, white neural tissue, they look kind of like tar, they look like gun that's like stuck to the neurons that isn't allowing them to fire properly and transmit signals.

And so That stuff builds up over time. It doesn't get cleared out of the brain properly in Alzheimer's and then people gradually lose their neural ability. And so what this study showed was that negative thinking was correlated with the buildup of Alzheimer's plaques. But the stunning thing about it is that it showed that negative thinking was linked to Alzheimer's far more strongly than genetics. Even if you have the the apo gene, which again, produces a strong genetic predisposition to Alzheimer's, and if you have the apo gene, if you didn't have negative thinking, that didn't trigger the expression of that gene as much.

And so that factor of positive thinking and negative thinking actually overrode all of the other risk factors for Alzheimer's and the effects scaled that was the other remarkable thing about that study the more negative thinking people did the greater the deposit of those beta and tau proteins in the brain and the less negative thinking they did the more positive they were the more they're laughing and they're grateful and they're happy and they're thankful and they're just doing all these good things we know are good for health generally the lower the level of those plaque spas in the brain.

So that's really a powerful argument for us to do all we can to affect our mindset. It is having a dramatic effect on our bodies regardless of our genetics. Yeah, it's amazing. And I just want to reflect back on that. You know, if you look at the methodologies that have been proven to be successful at reversing Alzheimer's, so if you look at the Ornish methodology, right, one of those is love and connection, one of the pillars that it's built on. And in Dr. Christine Burke, who's the, you know, the co-host of this summit, you know, and her true neuro methodology, you know, many of the,

Negative thinking, plaques, and epigenetics 7:11

actually three out of the eight pillars that she recommends are psychosocial pillars, right? Connecting with others. there's also reflection and growth because ultimately like I think what you're saying is that it's one thing to think that like a biochemical protocol could reverse these kind of things but ultimately like if you think that what you just said is true and that you need to be in this mind frame it's actually like those psychosocial factors that are going to determine determine this sort of long-term trajectory.

And that's why I'm super glad that you're bringing all of this research to the forefront because ultimately you can spend a lot of time working out what supplements to take or what drugs to take or otherwise. But if you don't meet that fundamental criteria, you're not on the right trajectory. What are some of the ways that you found to engender or that in people who maybe that's not their natural disposition or actually in the process of coming into this diagnosis find it quite depressing that maybe they're not going to go back to their old life.

How do you turn that back on? Just wanted to take a moment to thank our mission partners for helping bring this podcast to you. As you know, we are in the business of building a network of clinics that can reverse cognitive decline and our partners in that are organizations, you can find out more if you go to goevomed.com and look at the mission partners. But first and foremost, Truenura, if you go to truenura.com, you can get a demo. This is the underlying software that will connect this network of clinics and we have an incredible mastermind session, a lot of cool stuff coming out of that company.

You can see here, Fullscript, thanks to Fullscript, we have a very exciting challenge coming in the month of February. with Fullscript where we're going to help you take advantage of the tools that they have to compete with things like ChatGBT and Function Health. It's going to be awesome. Go to goevomed.com slash Fullscript. Big boost marketing if you need patients for your clinic. or if you have any marketing needs go evomed.com slash big boost is our premier supporter in that world and then please also check out freedom practice coaching Seth Conger is going to be on the podcast very soon built and scaled a very successful brain health practice and has been instrumental in helping practitioners with the non-clinical aspects of running a practice doing this.

These are our mission partners. These are people that I know well. These are people at the top of their sphere. I'm really excited to bring you the rest of the podcast with Dawson Church. Enjoy. Yeah, so there are all kinds of simple things you can do. And you're right, there are supplements, you may need a medication, but there are all kinds of simple things you can do. Like, for example, what I did first thing this morning when my wife woke up and walked out of the bedroom, I gave her a hug. not just a quick hug, but about a 15 or 20 second hug.

So you're really settling into that sense of love and connection. I walk by my neighbor, I smile. How hard is that? So we're doing all of these things and we share these connections with other people. If you don't have enough people in your life, focus on your inner life. And there are remarkable studies on this called relational spirituality. And relational spirituality, the earliest things were done in the 1990s. And they showed that over 100 genes were being affected when we had relationship with something larger than ourselves, a sense of connection with our higher power, with nature, with ourselves.

So you can do all of these things without any kind of medical intervention. And they turn out to be powerful epigenetic influences. And so yeah, I'm just saying you won't need to go get that medication. You don't need that doctor's visit. You don't need the supplements. No, we need both alternative medicine. We need conventional medicine. We need self-help that look to what you can do to empower yourself because so much of it is available. So much of it is free. And then again, if you're using pulling all these levers, like being grateful, the gratitude journal, three gratitude's a day.

How hard is that, you know, to think of three gratitude's a day? And by the way, you can't cheat and repeat yesterday's gratitude tomorrow, okay? These have to be three new things to be grateful for. But James, when you start to focus on what to be grateful for, I sit there sometimes in my own meditative practice, and I just tune into my breath. I'm so grateful, I get to take this breath. then this breath, then this breath. I stand up, I take this step, then that step, then the next step. And so just being grateful for the pot plant outside your window, the roof over your head and simple things like the body you have that functions is such a powerful practice.

And so you want to focus on those leverage points that are invisible but incredibly potent that stimulate positive mood in yourself. Meditation is able to dramatically shift your sense of mood.

Practical tools: gratitude, meditation, and brain change 12:14

We measure this in brain scans and EEGs by looking at the amount of gamma in your brain. And in long term meditators, they have an explosion of that gamma frequency in their brains up to 25 times the amount of the average human being. So you can make yourself simply by meditation, by spiritual practices, by what I call in my book, spiritual intelligence, the practices of spiritual intelligence. You can have your level of gamma and your level of happiness go up 25 fold. Now you're talking about a potent intervention for not only your mood, but your gene expression and all of the effects it has on your body downstream.

Wow. I know there's lots of different sources and educators in the meditation space and ultimately there's lots of different styles. Is there anything you've learned from your work as to what style of meditation or what structures or what lessons can be most effective? Because I'm sure they're not all equal when it comes to this. Yeah, there are hundreds of styles of meditation and in my earlier book, This Brain, I cover seven of them and different meditation researchers divide it in different ways but I have seven of them.

Everything from sitting quietly and observing your thoughts to a walk in nature, moving meditation, Qigong yoga, things like that. And so the best kind of meditation though, of all those kinds of meditation, of all the hundreds of styles there are out there, the best meditation of all is the one you will actually do pick one I say treat it like a buffet walk down the buffet line try your favorite things and find your favorite food your favorite flavor and then do that but do it regularly in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali he said there are three kinds of meditators three kinds of people on the journey, on the spiritual journey.

One group is people who are intermittent meditators, intermittently interested in spirituality is a nice add-on to life. The others have a sense of duty. The third group is what some of these traditions called God-intoxicated fools. They are so absolutely passionate. The Hildegard of Bingen is talking about fiery lights from heaven pouring through her body. Rumi, Mary Oliver, there are all these wonderful modern as well as ancient examples of that passion. So you want to find one, find a meditation style that drives you to write poetry, to run through the rainstorms, screaming with laughter and singing uncontrollably.

So one brings that way of joy to your life because research shows that that kind of meditation is one of the three things that sparks the quickest neuroplastic growth in your brain. Passion, your brain recognizes that when you're passionate about something, it's important. If you're just sitting there and thinking, oh, well, this is nice. Nothing much is happening in your memory and learning centers in the middle of your brain. If you are absolutely passionate about what you do, you know, if you're going to love your wife, love your wife, unconditionally, your children, your elders, the people around you, fill your life with the passion of a roomie or a Hildegard and suddenly it sparks remarkable shifts in the brain.

Andrew Newberg, one of my research colleagues says, the brain that's had that kind of passionate, intense connection with something larger than itself one time never goes back to its original state of information flow. So find your passion, experiment, find what really makes you alive. And then like one woman, for example, in a workshop said to me, Dawson, I began using your meditation, and I said, I'll do it 30 days without fail. I said, that's great. He made a 30 day commitment to using that meditation in my book.

And I said to her, what day are you on today? She said, I am on day 168. That's passion. That's what you need. Yeah. I wonder about that concept because I just feel like, you know, in some of the other research that I've seen over time, you know, it's really about connecting people to purpose in their life, which is, you know, AIDS longevity. And it seems like if I put those two things together, you know, having that purpose is what gets you passionate, gets you excited. And from what you're saying, there's real changes to the brain from engaging in that way.

And it's interesting that there's like a physiological mechanism to back up, you know, sort of psychosocial efforts, you know, or like ideas. Absolutely. If you look at the rate of muscle growth, so you go to the gym, you start working out, pumping iron, and after a while, you see your muscles getting bigger. It takes though, six months or a year to see discernible change, for example, in the volume of your muscles, your muscles grow very, very slowly compared to your neurons. If you start firing a neural circuit in your brain, there's one one case history in my book, spiritual intelligence of a of a tv host called graham phillips he began to meditate he had that passion for meditation and he had brain scans brain volume scans measuring the volume of each component of his brain before and after eight weeks and after eight weeks a part of his brain that governs emotional regulation really important governs regulating being annoyed angry resentful all those negative emotions that part of the brain in eight weeks it grew by 23 percent Now think about that.

Imagine if your muscles in two months in the gym grew 23%, you'd look like, you know, Chris Hemsworth in a year, his, his emotional regulation areas called the dentate gyrus grew 23% in only eight weeks, your brain is exploding with activity. When you do this, and all of the parts of your brain that handle emotion regulation, that handle effective top down control where you aren't subject to all of your impulses that govern memory and learning, those parts of the brain and Alzheimer's patients started to go, they start to disintegrate, the memory learning centers of Alzheimer's patients who meditate, get bigger, they actually reverse that brain shrinkage, and they increase.

So you're having this remarkable effect on your brain by by doing this, and it isn't happening in a year, or five years or 10 years, it's happening within a couple of months. Wow. Well, look, I'd love to take this to another level because I feel like having experienced it myself in the last year with my father, there's a very special relationship between the carer, especially the family carer and the potential patient or the patient. And, you know, as you said at the beginning, 54% of people involved in some way, it's because most people are in the care of someone who is in that.

Meditation styles, passion, and neuroplasticity 18:58

And I just, I see those numbers and those numbers look staggering if we don't really turn this around. you know, it ends up being like a hundred percent pretty quickly, right? Either people who have Alzheimer's or on the path to Alzheimer's are people who are looking after them. So there's a lot to do. But I also see that what you're saying, there's some special connection that can happen, you know, in those moments and ultimately like for a carer to start to meditate and to meditate with the potential patient, you know, could be a really lovely thing to do together.

Can you talk to like some of the interactions in the brain that happen from the sort of like two people in agreement over what's happening as opposed to just one person trying to do it by themselves. It's powerful when you have both people participating. And also the data for caregivers is shocking. One study showed that caring for an Alzheimer's patient shortens your life by five to eight years. Take a deep breath and think about that one. Five to eight years shorter lifespan for those caring with Alzheimer's patients, it is that stressful.

And so when you have people meditating together, there's a group effect. And I've looked at the whole range of MRI research and one of the three things that really stand out in terms of producing quick positive change in the brain. One of those is intensity, which we mentioned before. another of the three is community if you're meditating in a community the effect is enhanced in the research in Tibetan monks studying doing meditation in a cave alone versus those studying in a monastery we find that those in the monastery meditating together have quicker positive neuroplastic change in the brain the third of those three factors is compassion and just feeling compassion now compassion again it can be a two-edged sword if you have that compassionate connection with somebody else and they're suffering and you can't help that can turn into a deficit in your life but compassion when it flows from that sense of connection with something greater than yourself again this is this is a game changer when you are able to relax your grip in meditation with spiritual intelligence if you can relax your grip on the conviction That your own little life is all you have to think about and you're able to merge with something greater than yourself if you're able to release your what Larry Darcy calls your local mind your local self and merge with something greater than yourself again.

hundreds of genes change their expression in a healthy way, then you have compassion and caring, you have love, you have unconditional love, and it's not coming from that clean little local cell, you're simply participating in the endless boundless love of the universe and you're just this little local expression of that. Rooney says that we aren't a drop of the ocean, we are the ocean in a drop. So here you are, you're living your life as an expression of that grand whole and it again radically shifts everything you do in the outer sense.

So it's powerful to connect with people. And when you connect with people in this meditative space, and I think that also we did one range of studies that we had to do during COVID, we had to see and assess the results obtained from these practices done on zoom. versus those done in person. And we were pretty nervous. We were thinking, you know, we'll probably not get anything like the results on Zoom that we got from the in-person interaction. We got the same statistically significant results from Zoom connection as we did from in-person connection so it's not like you'll never need to see another human being in your whole life other than on a screen but you want to find a way of meditating with people when i meditate in the morning i visualize all the millions of people meditating that same time of day and that connection is powerful i have a meditation buddy she lives half the world away and i hardly ever see her in person but once a week we meditate together.

And that energetic connection is so powerful. When that begins, like last week when our time came, our range time for our meditation together, even though it was virtual, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I mean, it was so powerful to feel the energy enhancing there. So find that connection, find community. In Buddhism, this is called the Sangha of people, the community of people, practice with them. And that's going to reinforce everything else you're doing, compassion, intensity, and community. Wow.

That's like, uh, I really feel like getting like a step-by-step guide and I would just reflect back to you, like inadvertently find myself like, you know, finding those things, you know, at this time. And I feel really grateful for that. Yeah. I'll just share from my own experience. We, you know, I wrote a book on group medicine and I. was really looking at how groups of people could come together and support each other and healing. And all kinds of things happen in those groups. Some of the groups, like Jim Gordon's groups, were focused on mindfulness-based stress reduction, but other groups were focused on specific diseases or otherwise.

And we always see this sort of potentiation from groups of people doing chronic disease reversal work together.

Caregivers, community, and compassion 24:18

And it was funny, I brought out that book in January of 2020, and then COVID hit. And I was so passionate about groups and I was like, ah, there's not going to be any groups. And we started a journey to work out, would groups work over Zoom as well? And we found there was actually some, some potentiation of it because yes, maybe a session on Zoom, you know, maybe equal or not quite as equal to a session in person. There's something special about being in person. But being able to connect with people in between the sessions we found was really valuable because it was like continuing the relationship.

Yes, you're not in the room. People are going a lot about their everyday life. But if you could get a message from someone else in that group, hey, I was thinking about you. You mentioned this, that's something you're going to be doing. I've been part of a men's group for the last five years and just seen the power of just having other people caring about you enough to check in on what's going on and holding you accountable. and, you know, supporting you through the journey. I think there's something really powerful there.

And I think, um, you know, particularly when it comes to Alzheimer's, there's a lot that can be done in this sort of like people supporting people way. And we are going to have to get a lot better at that because ultimately if we have a society where everyone either has Alzheimer's or is supporting someone with Alzheimer's, there's not a lot of time for productive work. Yeah. And so find those people who make your heart sing. I also want to go. little further and I was so to say ditch those people who don't people hang on to old friendships like my wife had some old friends to you saying yeah you know I'd really enjoy being with them but I've been friends them for 20 years it's like if they aren't supporting your well-being if you don't feel a sense of connection with them if your life's just pathway has distanced itself from their life pathway.

It's time to let them go. Find people who absolutely make you inspired, who bring out your vibrance, who bring out your genius. And so do that on the lateral level. Do the family members as much as you possibly can. It's limited to family members because sometimes family members can be more difficult than others. But to the extent you can, do that with family members as well. I'm just sitting with even a difficult family member and just listening. And doing active listening and reflective listening is going to have a positive effect and then do it on levels other than the physical.

And for example, those studies of relational spirituality show that connecting with your higher power, whatever you conceive it to be, you don't have to believe in any particular religion. or a philosophy and if you do have a religion that really supports you use that those religious beliefs but even if you don't simply having a sense of connection with that which is greater than yourself is going to amplify your ability to nurture yourself and to have that sense of connection to all the epigenetic gifts that it brings so connect laterally in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras again which in one study of Alzheimer's patients they use meditations based on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras And over the course of six months, MRI scans before.

and after show that using these body based methods that potentially espouses and recommends their brain shrinkage stopped and their brains began growing again, the memory and learning centers began growing again, the emotion control centers began growing again, the executive centers began growing again, and the control group just kept on degenerating. So it's powerful to use these techniques, these body-based techniques, they can literally reverse the shrinkage typical of Alzheimer's brains. And again, you do it laterally.

And Patanjali says in the Yoga Sutras, be friendly. He says that in their four books in the Yoga Sutras, in all four books, he says, be friendly, be friendly. In one place, he says in book three, here's the secret of accelerating your spiritual growth. be friendly, be nice to other people, be nice to random strangers. So then you're doing it there laterally in local space and time. Do it in non local space and time tune in, breathe in and connect with your higher power, connect with that which is greater than yourself, who knows what might be out there on the non physical level.

And when you invite that energy in of benevolence of kindness, you know, pick a mentor picks and Francis pick one year and pick mother Mary, and just have these invisible sources of well-being in addition to the lateral ones. Now, when you're alone, say you have an eight-hour car ride all by yourself, you're tuning into St. Francis. You're spending eight hours with St. Francis or Mother Mary. I mean, now you're having all of this sense of support from the invisible as well as the visible. And when you do that, you have community in every sense of the word.

Wow, Dawson. Well, look, I really want to just share my appreciation for everything that you've shared here today. I know that, like, taking on these kind of new... ideas for many people listening to this can be somewhat overwhelming. But what I really appreciate about what you've shared in the last little while here is just how practical and simple and straightforward so much of this is. And I recognize that some of the shifts you're talking about are simple, but not common. And that ultimately, if we can make this more of a commonplace starting point, I think there's so much that can come from it.

And yeah, I would say like, obviously, this is a lifetime of work for you and that there's a lot, there's a lot that anyone could do. If someone's interested in following this thread, where would they, where would you recommend that they start in your body of work? Well, one good place to start is my book, Spiritual Intelligence. And when I began to write the book, I hadn't given a thought to Alzheimer's disease since my father died many years ago. And yet I found as I was reading studies on spiritual intelligence that it grows your brain.

And then I began to wonder about research showing spiritual intelligence with Alzheimer's patients. And that's where this whole body of work began to become apparent. So definitely read spiritual intelligence. It'll show you the research. It'll explain it in simple layperson's terms. Not a hard book to understand. And so there you'll get a sense of how to apply this, not just if you are directly involved in Alzheimer's, but for brain health at any age. The Alzheimer's plaque show up in the bloodstreams of people 30 years before any Alzheimer's symptoms become apparent.

Where to start: resources and closing thoughts 30:38

So we're taking blood samples from 30 year olds, and if they have elevated levels of those plaques, they'll be the ones to develop Alzheimer's 30 years later. So you want to make sure you're doing this at every age, even when you're 20 or 30 or 40 years old. And so that's one thing is that that book spiritual intelligence, it's the paradigm that we need now after emotional intelligence and that that's a good starting point. You can also download a free meditation at my website DawsonGift.com. That's just my name Dawson G-I-F-T Dawson Gift.

There's a meditation there. And that meditation we used with people And we did MRIs on them on a group of people before and after using the meditation for 30 days. And we compared them to control group and the control of sprains didn't change in a month. The group using that meditation at DawsonGift.com, they had growth in brain volume to do with emotion regulation and with cognitive development. So rapid brain changes in only a month using that meditation at DawsonGip.com. So just download that free meditation, read the book Spiritual Intelligence and again, you'll start to feel the changes right away.

that meditation unlocks neurochemicals like serotonin and dopamine and oxytocin and nitric oxide and beta endorphin and anandamide in your brain and you literally feel the flood of these neurochemicals in your body you start to feel much better that's why that woman who took the 30-day meditation challenge was still meditating at day 168 because she just got hooked on all these wonderful feel-good drugs in her brain every day. So give yourself that support and don't wait till you have a crisis. Build resilience now when you don't have a crisis so that when the next event happens in the world or in your own life or in your own health, you are a resilient person even firing those neural circuits, wiring them in your brain before you need them.

That way when we have life's inevitable setbacks, we are well prepared. So DawsonGift.com for meditation, read spiritual intelligence and open yourself to blessings. When you are attuned to that greater cosmos, something larger than yourself, you have no idea how much love might be there for you. And it turns out that the wisdom, the kindness, the love, the well being you do, you access when you're when you're there. is incredibly powerful and changes not just your body, your cells, but your entire outer life as well.

So love yourself enough to start practicing these things, not tomorrow, but today. A great message Dawson. Church, thank you so much for your wisdom and bringing it to the Reversing Alzheimer's Summit. So much for everyone in there. And I'm really glad that you mentioned the blood testing too, because ultimately I feel like there is information for everyone. Thank you so much for being here. And thank you very much for listening too. I hope you'll take some of the tools that Dawson's talking about, implement them in your own life and chart your journey back from Alzheimer's and prevent, reverse, protect your brain.

I'm your host, James Maskell. This is the Alzheimer's Summit, Reversing Alzheimer's. And thanks so much for tuning in and enjoy the next talk. So that was the podcast with Dawson. What an epic session and just a reminder that coming up in April we will have version two of our Reversing Alzheimer's Summit. You'll be able to hear from Dawson and we're going to have updates on some of the new studies from Dr. Bredesen and be charting a path forward for the reversal of Alzheimer's and cognitive decline.

Thank you so much for tuning in to the Evolution of Medicine podcast. We'll be back again next week and thanks so much for tuning in and we'll see you next time.