Full Transcript Gaz Oakleyu2019s vegan reversal 0:00 many many years on now, 10 years on of of strictly eating plant-based and now 0:06 connecting with nature and growing my food. 0:10 The the vegan rule set doesn't fit within that. I I just want to eat as 0:14 locally as possible. I want to know where every item of food has come from. 0:18 I I want to know like the farmer that grew it if I haven't grown it myself. I 0:22 struggle to talk about this and this is probably the first conversation I've had 0:25 in public about this. 0:34 >> Hi everyone. So, this comment was from last week. I'm not vegan but I can't 0:37 stand this level of inauthenticity. It's so clear he was never in it for the 0:41 animals. This comment, of course, was talking about Gaz Oakley and the many 0:45 other comments pouring into Plant Based News and other similar channels every 0:49 day. Gaz Oakley told the world he was no longer vegan several weeks ago but this 0:53 is the story that's not going away. People are still getting fired up. So, 0:57 the question we want to ask and answer today isn't what did Gaz do but instead 1:03 why will this story not go away? 1:19 >> Okay, so what's wild is we actually saw this coming. I don't know if you 1:22 remember but we talked about this on our podcast a few months before he actually 1:26 confirmed he wasn't vegan and I said at the time it really looked like Gaz was 1:29 heading towards announcing exactly this and here we are. Not just proved right 1:34 but proved right and then watching it rumble on for months afterwards. Are you 1:39 both surprised by this? Probably not but what I'm really 1:43 actually surprised by is the intensity of the reaction across the internet. 1:48 >> It's so true. Let's um why don't we back up and start where this all started. 1:53 Let's go to the clip of Gaz saying he's not going to be vegan anymore. 1:55 >> Uh things like pigeon as well, and you know, um 1:59 American crayfish that are just destroying the waterways and invasive 2:04 species that have to be >> Human intervention now, isn't it? 2:08 >> Yeah, we need to become the wolf. So, it's something I'm learning. It's like, 2:12 you know, that's why I don't call myself vegan anymore and I'm not sure this 2:16 would upset a lot of people. Part of the sort of struggle to talk about this and 2:21 then this is probably the first conversation I've had in public about 2:23 this. I I I I dropped that label just because I just want to be a bit more 2:28 free and and nothing's linear. I want to do a challenge where I only eat local 2:31 food um in the near future and that will probably see me eating invasive species 2:36 like crayfish or venison or pigeon. I don't know. Um something I'll look at in 2:41 the future. >> Okay, guys, I want to first, before I 2:44 want to hear from you both, but I want to um 2:47 get into some of the ways the internet responded to this topic. Let's start off 2:51 with Mike the Vegan. Here's Mike here and today Gaz Oakley has declared that 2:55 he is no longer a vegan. He was really a major chef in the vegan scene years 3:00 back. He's a content creator. He has 1.7 million Instagram followers and he used 3:04 to be Avant Garde Vegan. Now, he was super popular. It was to the point where 3:08 I would even see his videos played in like vegan restaurants and other 3:11 establishments and now he's not just ditching the vegan label like we've seen 3:15 a few times where people are continuing to eat fully plant-based. He's saying 3:18 "No, I've introduced some animal products." And he says you will soon see 3:21 him eating deer and other animals. >> His name is Gaz Oakley. Here's a little 3:25 clip of him being featured on Plant Based News. 3:28 >> [music] 3:31 >> Hello, I'm Gaz Oakley of Avant Garde Vegan. I'm a vegan chef, YouTuber, and 3:36 cookbook author and I'm doing an interview with Plant 3:39 Based News today. >> And here [music] he is speaking in front 3:41 of a full crowd at the Vegan Camp Out in the United Kingdom where he's from. 3:45 >> [music] >> And he's got 1.84 million followers on 3:49 his YouTube channel. So, when a person of this size quits being vegan, it's a 3:53 pretty big deal. So, let's wrap our mind around the timeline here. He seems to 3:57 have gone vegan around 2015. He then says he stopped calling himself a vegan
Internet backlash and identity debate 4:02 four or five years ago. >> I just dropped all labels. I haven't 4:05 mentioned the word vegan in [music] any of my videos for about four or five 4:08 years. I dropped that label just because I just want to be a bit more free and 4:13 and nothing's linear, I think. >> So, he only called himself a vegan for 4:16 like five or six years, but says he continued to eat fully plant-based for 4:20 10 years till what seems to be about a year ago. Then, he starts eating that 4:24 local fish and eggs that he got in Wales in his rural homestead from neighbors 4:30 and then doesn't mention it publicly until May 2026. 4:34 >> Struggle to talk about this. I mean, this is probably the first conversation 4:37 I've had in public about this. I went plant-based 10 year 10 years ago and was 4:43 very strictly vegan, you know, following the rule set. 4:46 >> Okay, this kind of language really bugs me. Strictly vegan? I mean, you either 4:50 are vegan or you're not. There's nothing strict about it. And talking about this 4:54 rule set? I mean, what kind of veganism were you following? It sounds like you 4:59 went down some crazy path. I mean, here is the rule set and it's not even a rule 5:03 set. It's the definition. It's simply a moral stance against animal cruelty and 5:08 exploitation, not viewing animals as objects to be exploited for your human 5:13 benefit. >> And you know, you look at the atrocities 5:16 that industrial farming and intensive animal agriculture is is hell on earth, 5:23 you know, these these sheds that these animals are kept in is is awful and I 5:27 watched a few documentaries and it was enough to make me think, "Wow, I need to 5:31 do the complete opposite of this and go plant-based and vegan and just shun it 5:36 completely." >> Okay, but 5:39 >> However, you know, many many years on now, 10 5:43 years on of of strictly eating plant-based 5:47 and now connecting with nature and growing my food, 5:52 the the vegan rule set doesn't fit within that. 5:54 >> Well, you can connect with nature and be vegan, right? I mean, there's some 5:57 months where I'm vegan and I I don't connect with nature at all. There are 6:01 other months where, again, I continue to be vegan and I completely connect with 6:04 nature. So, I don't really know what he's talking about. 6:06 >> I think it's a fallacy, personally. I think it's like a way to kind of segue 6:10 into now I'm a homesteader and now I'm doing this and I'm doing that. I do 6:13 understand what he says when he says, you know, he wants to wear natural 6:16 fibers. He wants to, you know, grow his own food. He wants to know who grew grew 6:20 his food. But, I believe that he could still have done that and still continued 6:25 to not exploit animals. I don't think that they were mutually exclusive. I 6:28 don't think you have to do one or the other. He could have done both. He has 6:31 the resources. He has his land. He has everything. 6:35 I feel like it's a little bit of an excuse and I find it a little bit 6:37 disappointing. >> Let's go back to Mike the Vegan. 6:40 >> As as humans, we can't get all of the the nutrients from a plant-based diet 6:45 without supplementing. This is the same for like 6:48 the vegans will go mad because this is the same for like 6:52 modern meat eaters. Meat isn't as nutrient dense as it was 6:56 when it's it's farmed in the intensive ways that it's grown in nowadays. So, 7:00 you're having to take B12 or the the cows themselves are supplemented with 7:04 B12. But, I don't want to take synthetic what they call supplements nowadays. 7:09 >> So, I'm happy he at least admitted that B12 is being used on animals as well. 7:14 But, that brings us to his most unhinged statement yet. 7:17 >> Cuz I'm like, you know, 7:20 that factory that the synthetic supplements were made in could have been 7:24 woodland before. >> But, at this point, I'm feeling like 7:27 there's a bit of gaslighting going on or should I call it gazlighting? Okay, I 7:31 just I just had to make a stupid pun. Like, I have to say, this feels 7:34 intellectually dishonest to me. Like, oh, we we should just not have any 7:37 buildings at all because they could be woodlands. When the reality is that the 7:41 entire world's like 10 or 20,000 kg of B12 is made in just a handful of 7:47 factories. Like this is not a land use issue, especially when compared to the 7:51 land used by animal agriculture, which is a third of our ice-free land. Which 7:55 we once again need to remember would expand if we shifted to non-factory 8:01 farming, if we were just grazing animals, because it takes them twice or 8:05 more as long to reach slaughter weight due to the low calorie content of 8:08 grazing. So, that's not looking good. But again, in terms of B12, it's 8:12 important to note that the majority of B12 production is also fed to animals. 8:17 55% of sales goes to animal feed for B12. However, that is not human-grade, 8:23 is not quite as refined, and it is sold in larger bulk amounts. So, we don't 8:27 know. It could be as much as 80% of the B12. It's sort of an unstudied figure. 8:32 But I can't be vegan because B12 factories could be forest is the most 8:36 wild take ever. >> He's not going to have supplements 8:38 because the factories that make the supplements could have been producing 8:43 woodland. That's destroying nature. >> Yeah, he basically said like if there 8:47 weren't the supplements factories, that would have been a woodland. 8:51 >> [gasps] >> And the whole point is just like, right, 8:54 so our entire society wouldn't exist if we didn't have buildings. And Mike the 8:58 vegan's point is like there are a couple of factories across the world that make 9:02 the entire global whatever it's called supply of B12 9:08 supplements. And that's in a small amount of factories. It's not a land 9:12 issue. Like B12 supplements are not a land issue. Do you know what is a land 9:15 issue? Animal agriculture of any form. >> Especially grass-fed extensive livestock 9:22 grazing. >> Have none. 9:25 >> [snorts] 9:27 >> She doesn't even know what to say. >> [laughter] 9:30 >> Do you know what is funny though is um Happy Healthy Vegan comes up with a 9:34 solution for Gaz. And he basically says like, okay, Gaz says he's done for doing 9:38 second hand leather for example." So, Happy Healthy Vegan says 9:41 >> All hope is not lost here. I have a brilliant workaround that Gaz can use so 9:45 he can take his supplements that were made in a factory where a forest should 9:49 be. Anyway, all he has to do is buy them second hand, right? Just have someone 9:53 buy the supplements first and then sell them to a thrift store and then Gaz can 9:57 go thrifting and buy his supplements second hand just like his leather and 10:01 all moral issues are gone. It's totally cool now, right? So, Gaz, you can take 10:07 your supplements. Just buy them second hand. Just have a friend buy them for 10:09 you first and have your friend just kind of sell them to you a little bit later. 10:13 >> The whole thing is a complete farce. It's ridiculous. 10:16 >> joke to say that like, you know, the supplement factories are taking land 10:20 that we could have had as forests. Animal agriculture and regenerative 10:24 regenerative farming are taking huge amounts of land that could be used to 10:28 grow crops that could feed the entire global population. Whereas right now, 10:32 animal agriculture is only providing 18% of the world's calories and millions of 10:37 people are starving. Taking more land is not the solution to this. We We're not 10:42 all in that privileged position. Like, we can't live that way, which is why 10:45 factory farming exists. And sure, he does say factory farming is abhorrent, 10:50 horrible. We agree, but I don't believe it's better to still take an animal's 10:56 life for your food when you don't need to. 10:58 >> So, to balance the ecosystem, he's going to be eating various animals like highly
Health, supplements, and local food arguments 11:01 sentient deer, which he's already using the euphemism venison for, already 11:05 separating himself from that animal. But, he continues to paint this pastoral 11:09 appeal to Nirvana. >> Or maybe shown like a community in my 11:14 native country of Wales a few hundred years ago where we lived off the land, 11:19 we grew our food, we only ate meat when it became available, whether it was like 11:24 we went fishing or we hunted a local like an animal and, you know, meat 11:30 wasn't on every every plate and we just lived and ate locally in harmony with 11:35 the the environment around us. You would think, now that's the life's that's the 11:39 way of eating that I need to follow [snorts] and I would have done that not 11:43 done >> The other extreme opposite is going 11:45 vegan. So yeah, it appears that he would rather LARP medieval Welsh homesteading 11:49 than find a healthy balance in which he grows as much vegan food as possible and 11:54 then fills in a couple little gaps. He can use vegan fertilizer instead of 11:58 manure, etc. That's why this is starting to feel a little bit more to me like a 12:01 creature comfort thing of like, oh the way the world's going it just seems so 12:05 much nicer to get back to the way things were when instead he could be facing the 12:09 reality of the world that things have moved on. 12:12 >> There was a comment under one of these videos which said, it has become very 12:16 clear to me that Gaz simply wants to hunt, eat, and use animal products. The 12:19 problem is that he just can't admit it. Instead, he's making these wild excuses 12:23 and unfortunately, very familiar excuses which I would have to agree with. 12:28 Someone else was saying, you know, he was talking about trying to live how 12:31 people lived in the past or whatever, but we don't see him giving up his car, 12:35 for example. >> He's talking about eating invasive 12:38 species. What's the most invasive species on this planet? 12:42 >> It's us. We're the biggest >> humans. So is he going to pick up 12:45 cannibalism next? >> I don't know. Is he helping out the 12:49 planet by eating some people? I mean, the reasoning just doesn't make sense. 12:54 >> There's this comment here that says, what irks me the most about Gaz is he 12:59 built a platform for profit and has hidden the fact that he's no longer 13:02 vegan for the past 5 years. This is dishonest. 13:07 >> Is that true? >> I think it was kind of like a slow burn. 13:11 That's kind of what the video from Dreadie Vet says, which we can throw in. 13:14 He basically talks about the fact that slowly but surely that the terminology 13:19 was changing, the wording was changing and people were noticing it. He was 13:22 called Avant-Garde Vegan. Klaus, you interviewed him on PBN a number of 13:26 times, promoted him, his books were everywhere, Avant Gard Vegan. But you'll 13:31 notice Jonathan that in this interview where he reveals it, he says, "I went 13:35 plant-based about 10 years ago." No, you didn't. You were vegan and you were 13:40 speaking about being vegan for ethics the whole time and suddenly, 13:43 retrospectively, it's plant-based now. So it's easier to kind of say, "Well, I 13:47 never was vegan." Lies. 13:49 >> I just need to get this off my chest. I 100% agree, Sarah. When I interviewed 13:53 him in 2017 for the first time in East London near Old Street, okay? He 14:00 said the thing that inspired him and turned him vegan 14:04 uh was Gary Yourofsky. Now, we don't need to get into Gary Yourofsky's 14:07 message, but Gary Yourofsky is an animal liberation activist, okay? So he did not 14:12 get into veganism through some kind of subtle, slow, plant-based burner of a 14:19 transition. >> It's frustrating because yeah, I think 14:22 the dishonesty comes from the fact that it's easy to change it now and say, "I 14:26 never was that way, so it's fine. It was just about the food for me. I'm just a 14:29 chef. It was only food." But he actually was an ethical vegan. He was. 14:34 >> And now it makes so much more sense of why people are up in arms on the 14:39 internet about him. Um because this is a 14:43 very um 14:45 textbook identity threat response, right? Like for a lot of vegans 14:50 for a lot of us vegans, this isn't a diet. That's not why we do this. It's a 14:55 core part of who we are, our identity. It's how we see ourselves and our own 15:00 morality. And so when there's someone who's 15:03 visible in this space, obviously, Klaus, you you interviewed him and trusted, 15:09 very trusted in the space, and they step away from that identity, it doesn't just 15:13 feel like someone's changing their mind or changing the items on a menu, right? 15:20 It feels it feels like 15:24 it makes you wonder if their whole belief system was ever solid, right? You 15:27 doubt that. And I think that's why this reaction is so disproportionate to like 15:32 the actual act of, you know, somebody just eating differently, right? That's 15:36 how I think meat eaters would say it. Why why are plant-based people going all 15:39 up in arms? He's just choosing a different He's just choosing to eat a 15:42 little bit differently, but it's so much deeper than that, isn't it, 15:47 folks? >> Now, this is a step too far in my 15:50 opinion. This might be the most wild reaction we've ever seen to Gaz Oakley 15:54 and his thinking he's no longer vegan. A page on Facebook was reported to show 15:58 someone burning his book on their barbecue. 16:08 >> Because 17:13 If it wasn't tragic, it would be hilarious, but yeah, it's pretty bad 17:15 move. Pretty bad move. And this is this is a reflection of 17:20 how much it annoyed people, but it was taken way too far. And it's insane that 17:23 there are so many comments even this week just like flying in about this 17:28 topic. >> Yeah. 17:30 >> It's crazy. >> It it really is. And I think I will say 17:33 that I think the reaction in some cases has been a little harsh. Like I do not 17:38 condone the burning of anyone's book. That is wrong. That is giving like 17:43 fascism aspects that that we don't want to obviously go into that, but that is 17:48 not right. But I get, like you said, why people are so 17:52 upset. I I kind of just I wish that it it kind of shows sometimes the vegan 17:57 community in a bit of like a not so nice light because some of the reactions have 18:02 been so extreme. And I don't necessarily feel like it welcomes people cuz they 18:06 might feel like, "Oh, if I go vegan and I speak about it publicly, then are 18:09 people going to do this to me?" Like it's kind of almost like a pitchfork 18:13 kind of situation. 18:15 >> Yeah. >> I absolutely agree with you there. I I 18:17 mean, I would 100% pump the brakes. >> Should we do the health reasons one just 18:21 to give Shabnam something to kind of comment on because that is quite 18:25 interesting in a different angle, maybe. >> He actually did the last subject here, 18:29 and that is health. He sort of pulled a Alex O'Connor or Cosmic Skeptic or he 18:34 went, "Oh, I have some mystery health issue that I'm not going to talk about 18:37 so you can't actually really respond to it." And in this case, it seems even 18:41 less serious cuz as he posted on Instagram, "After 10 years of eating a 18:44 entirely plant-based and supplementing appropriately, I began experiencing some 18:48 health issues." Following advice and after a lot of thought, I introduced a 18:51 small amount of animal foods into my diet again, being eggs and wild fish. 18:57 And he says eggs from rescued hens, but I have to ask you, the comment section, 19:01 if you reestablish an exploitative relationship with rescued animals, would 19:05 they then need to be rescued again? So I'm just reading into the small amount 19:08 of information we have here, but some health issues is not like some serious 19:13 debilitating health issues, etc. He doesn't say he went to see a plant-based 19:17 doctor or a nutritionist. So, we have no idea what's going on, but it seems just 19:21 like a nice little out. Like, "Oh, yeah, it was my health, so, you know, you 19:23 can't really come at me." But, it's also interesting because people claim the DHA 19:28 aspect for fish. He's not doing that here. Obviously, you can get that from 19:31 algae, but a lot of these local extreme fish don't even have high levels of DHA. 19:36 And also, just have to counter with vegan health crushing it. For example, 19:40 the recent meta-analysis that found that vegans have 22% lower risk of all 19:45 cancers combined. So, I don't think that's personally the best choice. And 19:48 then, once again, he added eggs. What is the nutrient in eggs that he's not 19:51 getting? What is the particular one? I would love to know what he thinks 19:55 happened there, but that's all he says. In the end, I am grateful that he was 19:59 vegan for the time that he was and got a lot of people to eat great recipes, 20:02 learn how to cook, etc. But, I just don't really buy his reasons. I feel 20:07 like it's this cultural shift that he had by being in rural Wales, trying to 20:13 integrate with his neighbors, not being the weird vegan, using the term vegan, 20:17 finding that to be more important. Maybe I'm reading into it, but the reasons 20:20 he's coming up with afterwards, like the B12 factory could have been 20:24 Woodlands, just don't make sense. They seem like a post hoc explanation for his 20:27 behavior. >> Well, we can't really make a comment on 20:29 someone's health without having any information on it. We have nothing to 20:33 talk about. >> [laughter] 20:36 >> Except for the fact that there's another crutch or another reason to support this 20:40 transition or this choice of behavior change. But, the evidence is very clear 20:44 that you can get all nutrients, macronutrients, caloric needs all 20:49 satisfied with a whole food plant-based diet, if that's what you want to do. 20:54 >> Guys didn't want to do it when he couldn't make any money from it, did he? 20:56 He didn't want to do it when there was with that.
Homesteading, leather, and authenticity critiques 21:00 >> Clap is mic drop double. >> [gasps] 21:03 >> I need that in there. >> [laughter] 21:06 >> And my reaction. Keep my reaction to class as mic drop, please. 21:10 >> He had Wagamama's, yeah? >> Yep. 21:12 >> A UK leading restaurant. And they they bought the hype, but they're 21:16 corporations, so I understand why they jump on it. 21:19 80, 70, 80% vegan menu, then they jump off it when the vegan isn't trending, 21:23 yeah? I get that. Gaz Oakley was a an author and an advocate. He had books. He 21:28 had a channel name with vegan in it. He talked about animal liberation activists 21:32 that had inspired him. He can't just jump off the bandwagon 21:35 like that just because there's a bit more money in not doing that. I mean, I 21:38 think it's a little bit that and mainly this dystopian idea of like going back 21:42 to the land. I think in his head he's just got this stupid idea that going 21:45 back is the way forward. Going forward sustainably means working with vehicles 21:49 and roads and factories and a globalized food system cuz you know what? You can't 21:53 change that. It means mindfully doing the right thing within that 21:56 unfortunately kind of capitalist structure. 21:58 >> This is how he wants to live. He wants to live off the land, whatever. That's 22:02 fine. I think the part that bothers me is the way he and the interviewers speak 22:07 about it like this is the way everyone should live, which is so silly. 22:12 Literally, no. People can't do that. I mean, that would be such a 22:17 Oh my god, such an enormous leap backwards for humanity. But also, most 22:21 people don't want to. You know, most of us don't want to spend time growing our 22:26 food. Now, he says you don't need a lot. You could easily just with a balcony, 22:30 you can grow all the food you need. >> I think one of my biggest regrets 22:34 actually wasn't starting to grow my food earlier when I lived in London because 22:38 if I showed that on my small balcony that I had, 22:41 I could have grown enough food just to feed myself. Um 22:46 and with very little time invested. 22:50 >> That is literally not true. Like, what what? It's a choice for him. He seems 22:54 happy. He says he was struggling with anxiety and depression and now he's not. 23:00 Terrific. You know, he genuinely seems happy with his choices and with his 23:04 lifestyle, but that doesn't mean other people would be. 23:09 And it doesn't mean it's the best choice in terms of animal welfare, 23:13 sustainability. Sustainability-wise, like we want people living more densely. 23:18 We don't want people living even more spread out. People have enough land to 23:23 themselves as it is. And again, if that way worked, we would still be doing it. 23:28 We moved away from that sort of lifestyle because it was hard and it 23:33 didn't feed people. People starved. Now, far fewer people starve because of 23:38 industrialization. >> But homesteading is the new thing. It's 23:41 the new it thing. It's the new trend. It's And arguably, 23:47 hear me out, it's empowering people to take control of their own food system. 23:53 And that's what we hope. And I do hope people that homestead do 23:56 98, 99% fruits and vegetables. >> grains and whatever they can. But often 24:02 time, people have chickens. All my friends here that have like backyard 24:05 hens would die before they would kill their hen. They would rather lose a limb 24:10 than kill their chicken or eat their chicken. They love them like their dogs. 24:14 >> But do they still eat chicken? >> Yeah, but not their chicken. That's the 24:17 point I was trying to make. Like there's that massive disconnect and I'm like, 24:21 "Cool, you won't eat Sally and John, but you'll go to Taco Bell or 24:27 Chick-fil-A and get a sandwich and not think twice about it." Homesteading is 24:32 in, right? People are really interested in taking some ownership over their own 24:36 food. What if he's opening himself up to a totally different subset of followers 24:41 and population that, like Klaus said, could be that new consumer that he's 24:45 looking for. >> So, like me, the thought of wearing 24:48 plastic leather shoes, which I once would have 24:51 been so excited to find that Nike are making now a vegan version of the Air 24:56 Force Ones, you know, in a in a plastic leather. would be The thought of wearing 25:00 them and them maybe one day just falling on my compass pile, not that they would, 25:05 but they were to and never giving back to the land, never 25:10 decomposing is like, why would I why would I have that in my lifestyle? 25:14 >> Okay, so let me get this right. So now that you're living out in nature in the 25:18 wild and you have some new things that you're vibing about in natural versus 25:22 unnatural and plastic is not in alignment with your current values. So 25:27 you're okay now with animals being killed because you have a thing against 25:31 plastic because it doesn't decompose because it's unnatural. First of all, 25:36 with this point of view, you absolutely disagree with what veganism is. You see 25:40 animals as objects to be exploited for our benefit. If you see it morally 25:44 justified to have animals slaughtered so you can have leather shoes. 25:49 When you can just have plastic ones that don't involve killing animals. 25:53 >> giving back to the land, never decomposing is like, why would I why 25:57 would I have that in my lifestyle? >> So Gaz says "I'll never wear the vegan 26:01 leather, I'd only wear animal derived leather because the vegan leather never 26:05 decomposes." Well, he's missing two key points. First of all, vegan leather can 26:10 decompose. Again, I would recommend Gaz actually do some research rather than go 26:14 with his vibes when he's sitting out in the forest there. Check out this study 26:19 here about mushroom mycelium for developing leather-like materials and 26:23 the study says It says "Overall, the results demonstrate mycelium based 26:27 leathers as a biodegradable, low impact alternative that can replicate the 26:32 visual and functional characteristics of traditional leather." 26:36 In contrary to the gaslighting that Gaz is giving about vegan leather being not 26:41 biodegradable, while his real animal derived leather is not completely 26:45 biodegradable as well. Particularly, the chemicals immersed in it during the 26:49 tanning are not biodegradable. In fact, there is over 170 chemicals used in 26:55 tanning leather that could harm soil and animals and worsen air pollution. Bottom 27:00 line is both vegan and non-vegan forms of leather have their plusses and 27:04 minuses and both indeed have some environmental impacts that aren't that 27:08 positive. But to choose one as the obvious single winner because it it's 27:14 the best for the environment, it doesn't have any biodegrading problems, it's all 27:18 natural, that's a bunch of If you If If they both have problems, it 27:22 seems if you really had concerns about animal cruelty and exploitation, you 27:26 would go with the one that didn't have to involve killing animals for you to 27:29 have leather. >> I guess it's just moving the the video 27:31 on Vegan Talk UK was so mad at Gaz Oakley for his switch 27:37 um that they put his book in the trash. 27:42 >> [music] 27:49 [music] 28:03 [music] 28:08 >> And we also have Fabien, aka Dread Vet, who gives a really insightful rundown on 28:13 why he thinks Gaz Oakley is a complete fraud. 28:16 >> A fraud, strong words, strong words. >> I've been thinking a lot about the Gaz 28:21 Oakley situation. Honestly, what keeps bothering me isn't simply that he isn't 28:26 vegan anymore, honestly. People change, people reassess things, people abandon 28:29 beliefs they once held. Like that's part of being human, all right? But But what 28:34 really gets to me and fascinates me is how often these transitions happen in 28:38 the exact same way. Because you spend years building an audience around a 28:43 particular ethical position. If you build or make books, businesses, 28:47 partnerships, public identity, make money, and around the idea that that 28:52 animals don't need to die for us to eat well or healthily or meaningfully or 28:57 ethically, then moving away from the position is clearly a significant 29:01 moment, and it deserves proactive honesty. It deserves clarity. It 29:05 deserves a direct, honest conversation. And yet, what we always get over and 29:11 over and over again is these really divisive soft launches. You know, he's 29:15 on a podcast, or they just start saying it in their content, or there's a subtle 29:19 change in the language. You go from vegan to plant-based, or there's a few 29:22 comments in between conversation, or I really understand invasive species, or 29:26 there's a gradual repositioning. Then, eventually, once enough people have 29:29 noticed and there's a bit of a kickoff, a statement is released and explaining 29:32 their situation. And that's what sits so uncomfortably. It feels like somebody's 29:35 not bringing their audience on for their journey to understanding. It's clear 29:39 It's clear It's to avoid the fallout of making a really bad or really un popular 29:45 decision. Probably going to pop a little bit. Like, for me, one time I find 29:47 really difficult is if you've changed your mind and you have a different 29:51 different ethical position, just tell people. Just be up-front. If you've 29:54 decided that animals you can now eat them is part of your world and they've 29:58 become food again, tell people. Like, stand on business. Own it. Because what 30:02 becomes so frustrating is people spend months repositioning themselves and then 30:07 act as though everybody else in the vegan movement is so judgmental, is 30:11 unreasonable to think for being frustrated. And it's not even about 30:14 gaslighting. This is about a really clear pattern because every couple of 30:18 days, every couple of weeks, every couple of months, we hear or see the 30:21 same story from influencers. It's the same crap. Somebody builds a big 30:25 following or even a smaller following from veganism, they become successful, 30:28 and they get they become influential, or they And suddenly, out of nowhere, they 30:32 become deeper connection to nature. Suddenly, it's Oh, it's not about me, 30:37 it's about ultra-processed foods. That's the enemy. Suddenly, it's not about 30:40 being within the city. It's actually we need to be out in the farm and grounding 30:45 ourselves. Suddenly, it's a story about balance and listening to your body and 30:50 science is out there to get us. And And what always strikes me and what's so 30:54 obvious is how rarely the big ethical question is rarely addressed. Because we
Fraud accusations, influencer dynamics, and political framing 31:00 hear about digestion, we hear about hormones, we hear about wellness, we 31:02 hear about healing, and we hear about personal journeys of understanding and 31:06 growth. And somehow, somehow, somewhere within this, the animal that we're 31:11 killing or consuming now disappears. Like the one being whose interests are 31:15 supposedly at the center of one ethical movement suddenly just vanishes into 31:20 thin air. Because like what people need to understand is veganism isn't about 31:24 whether you like tofu or not or that you've got an allergy to pea protein or 31:28 it's never about whether a burger came from a factory. It's never about soy or 31:33 it was always a question whether another being should be consumed and pay with 31:38 their life for our preferences. If your answer to question If your answer to 31:41 that question has changed, just say so. Because it's exhausting watch people 31:44 wrap that and layer it in wellness and and and and it's just like just own 31:50 it. It's impossible to see it all the all these layers that you've decided 31:53 suddenly are really important. Just own it. Just own it. And you know what you 31:57 know what And honestly, I find something else that really pisses me off as well. 32:00 It's watching other plant-based vegan influencers in the space come out, give 32:04 love hearts, "Oh, we love you. You know, it's a difficult decision." Like I'm 32:08 sorry. I'm sorry. Like have sense. Make it make sense. Like I'll give you a 32:12 really crude example. If you have a real ethical grounding in something that you 32:17 hate, let's just say you um you don't believe in the oppression of women, 32:22 okay? Really crude example. And someone shares that position with you, right? 32:25 And then this person says, "I don't believe in the oppression of women 32:28 except this type." Do you go and applaud them for only a little bit oppressing 32:33 that group of people? No. So, I don't know why we suddenly have this this this 32:38 moral capacity to like oh, I get it. It's difficult. Still support you, mate. 32:42 Like I'm sorry, if you're a vegan influencer and you were there doing up 32:45 sorry love heart da da da da da. I don't know what planet you're on, 32:48 respectfully. And I understand we have to have open conversations and talk to 32:51 each other, but I'm sorry. It's not good to also be in this space showing support 32:56 for someone who has decided that the oppression of animals in and using terms 33:00 like invasive species and clearly not having the best grounding and 33:03 understanding in them is suddenly doing the thing that we've all been trying to 33:07 focus on not doing. Do you see how that makes sense? The moment someone steps 33:11 away from veganism, suddenly everyone wants to celebrate their courage and 33:14 their honest and their growth and their authenticity. And I just don't buy it 33:17 because a lot of that support isn't because he's doing something. It's 33:21 because essentially it's a relief for them. It's relief that somebody who once 33:26 represented an uncomfortable challenge in veganism no longer does. It's relief 33:30 that somebody who once really forced the question to think about animals 33:34 differently has now been able to show them and make them feel comfortable 33:38 comfortable again. It's relief that someone who supposedly disrespected the 33:41 status quo has now found a return to it. And the applause and the celebration of 33:46 that courage is not because oh, we're celebrating his integrity. It's because 33:50 it's it's it's proof to them that this method this way of living doesn't work 33:55 and it they were right the whole time. It's it's shows conformity they are part 34:00 of. That's the problem. But like I mean, I'll be honest with you. I'm not 34:02 entirely surprised by any of this because this is how social media works. 34:05 And I think within the vegan movement or any movement to be honest with you, 34:08 influence does not represent a good ethical conviction or grounding. It 34:13 doesn't. They are not the same at all. Influence is rewarded with adapting to 34:18 the market. Really simple. And when you're committed to something, 34:21 essentially you stay in your place even when being someone else would be much 34:24 easier. And I think social media has made it increasingly difficult to tell 34:28 the difference between an influencer and someone actually committed. Like it's so 34:32 easy to be seduced by the aesthetics of Gaz Oakley's work. Like, you know, he's 34:36 he's got his garden, he's got his growing his own food, he's grounding 34:39 himself, and everything looks like it's filmed on on some old school film even 34:43 though it's clearly just a DSLR with a filter over it. We're seduced by his 34:47 fantastic looking food, his lovely gardens, you know, beautiful people. It 34:52 matches the aesthetic that's really easy to consume. And And And we see 34:56 confidence and assume there must be a commitment to what we see. We see 35:00 popularity with millions of followers and assume that this person is a mark of 35:05 depth and investigation and insight. And then And then And then we're shocked to 35:09 discover that somebody has pivoted. But like, why are we really shocked? I mean, 35:12 that's also really the learning here. Why are we shocked? Like, the entire 35:15 social media influence profession is built on maintaining relevance. And the 35:20 people that we give so much influence to is built on attention. And when 35:23 attention shifts, essentially what we're saying is is that their ability to make 35:27 money is at risk. And people will sell themselves out over and over again to 35:33 protect that level of influence. And when audience change when audiences 35:36 change, many influence will change with them. We've seen this a billion times 35:39 before. Because the market doesn't reward your commitment to something that 35:43 isn't profitable. It rewards your ability to create new ways to be 35:47 adaptable and and make money and be consumed. And maybe for me, that's the 35:52 real lesson here. Maybe we need to stop looking for these like heroes via social 35:56 media and stop looking for the perfect vegan influencer who embodies this 36:01 movement. And we go, "Oh, did it it." Because movements don't survive because 36:05 of charisma and and and centering our views around one person or a group of 36:09 people. They survive because ordinary people like me and you are committed to 36:13 the principles when nobody else is watching us. When when And it's whether 36:18 it's regardless if we make money from it or not, we're still there. And it's not 36:22 whether Gaz Oakley is right or wrong. I have my own thoughts about that. The 36:24 question is is is this. What do people truly believe when believing it, 36:30 veganism, whatever, no longer benefits them? Because that's where the 36:33 commitment begins. And increasingly, we're finding that that's exactly where 36:37 influencers end. That's where it stops. >> And on the other end of the spectrum, 36:41 Natalie Portman presented Gaz Oakley's fall from veganism through describing a 36:45 vegan to fascist pipeline. Let's go to the clip. 36:48 >> People always think I'm crazy when I talk about this, but fascism and 36:52 anti-vegan ideology go hand in hand. Here's an example. 36:56 >> You have no connection to where your food's coming from. Veganism Veganism is 36:59 fine because, you know, you just go to the supermarket, you buy just vegan 37:02 things. When you have a connection to where the food's coming from, 37:06 it's like questions why why would I go and pick up that tofu that block of tofu 37:11 or that um 37:13 faux meat. >> That's Gaz Oakley, who built his brand 37:16 as a vegan chef. But a few years ago, he left the city for a rural homestead, and 37:21 now he wants to eat invasive animals. I'm not saying Gaz is a fascist, but the 37:26 way he talks about this is playing into the urban versus rural divide, which is 37:31 at the heart of far-right politics. Saying vegans are disconnected from 37:36 nature, from reality, and from their food. Real people eat real food from the 37:41 local land. Far-right ideology loves this rhetoric. Cities are filled with 37:47 woke, out-of-touch liberals, but the countryside is authentic and pure. And 37:52 fueling that division isn't an accident because a population at war with itself 37:57 is easier to radicalize and control. And this idea that eating local is better 38:03 for the climate isn't actually true. You could ship a banana around the world six 38:07 times, and it would still have a lower carbon footprint than local beef because 38:11 it takes so many resources to feed, water, and kill animals. But this idea 38:17 of blood and soil, return to the land, these were Nazi slogans, and we need to 38:22 remember that history and recognize this for the red flag that it is. 38:27 >> She said it, not me. She said it, not me. 38:29 >> No commenting. >> [laughter] 38:33 [gasps] >> And also, just one thing I also wanted 38:35 to add in, it looks like he's taken his Instagram down. I think the backlash was 38:39 so bad and he was receiving so much kind of like hate. Maybe not even hate, but 38:45 like criticism, let's call it that. Because I don't think anybody's saying 38:48 anything that's incorrect. It's It's just heavy 38:51 criticism to the point where he's actually just taken his Instagram down. 38:55 >> Are you sure he's not blocked you? >> I mean, I'm not sure, but he could have 38:59 blocked me potentially. I did make a couple of I I made some reasonable 39:02 comments. I didn't say anything mean. I was just like, you know, it would be 39:06 interesting to me to see if he comes back with a new page or a new view or 39:11 something like that. And I'm so sure that he will. Like he has a store in 39:14 Wales and, you know, he wants to obviously promote this lifestyle. And 39:18 like we said before, I am thankful to him for what he did for the movement. He 39:21 was huge. He was one of the first recipe creators I ever like followed his 39:25 recipes. Like I loved his recipes. Uh for me in the early days, they were 39:29 great. So, I do wish him well, but I just wish that 39:34 it could have been different.
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