Healing the Heart With Yoga and Meditation

Introduction to Jonny Kest and the summit 0:00

Hello everybody. Welcome to this really important interview for the Reverse Heart Disease Naturally Summit. We didn't just pick anybody. We picked probably the most prominent yoga educator, instructor and practitioner, on, the US surface and maybe the planet, also a very dear friend and a fellow Detroiter. So, I can actually vouch for what he's done for the local. The regional and the national international yoga community. So without further ado, Jonny Kest. How are you? Very good. Joe. Thank you for having me.

Very grateful for you for taking the time out of your very busy schedule. You have, so much that you do all the time. We go back, I would estimate 25 to 30 years when you started opening advanced and, beautiful yoga studios in Detroit and, began the tradition of big classes, packed classes, wonderful community. And then also, of course, yoga teacher training. And I was just one of those people and a downward dog, on a sweaty mat and a wonderful room. And you, obviously had an amazing ability to bring a community together and teach and inspire.

But tell us, you know, a little, you know, you're a very famous yoga instructor and yoga trainer. I believe you're the national director of yoga training for the Lifetime Fitness. You know, mega brand of, super gyms. And I've done that for a long time. But tell us a little bit. Go back to I think it's Hawaii and give people a little sense why, you know, decades later, yoga has been a part of your life almost your entire life. Yes. I was introduced to yoga in Hawaii. You got that at the age of 12?

My father, you know, had us four kids. My parents were divorced, and he was living in Hawaii, and he had us four kids, and he was going to yoga every morning. Ashtanga Vinyasa with David Williams, who was the very first American to bring this more vigorous style of yoga to to America, starting vinyasa. And, that's where I got my start shows for for the chance at one of the many, many people listening to this interview already is scratching their head. What what was in the United States before Ashtanga and Vinyasa style, vigorous yoga?

Was there anything specific or a variety of practices up to up to that point? Yoga was, first of all, it wasn't really that well known. Most people the only time you heard of yoga was on TV shows like That's Incredible, where a Yogi would be invited to hold his breath for five minutes or fit into a small box. It it wasn't really, popular at whatsoever. There's a few books that were coming out like,

Discovering yoga in Hawaii and its early roots 3:00

I think it was called 21 Days of Yoga or and that that came out that started to, to make yoga more, more awareness. But back then, when I started practicing, which was in 1980, in the early 80s, no one really was aware of it. You could have to search far and wide to find a yoga class in a community center somewhere. Now. I mean, did David Williams, the famous teacher that inspired you and your father? Did he go to India to learn these styles of yoga and brought him back? He did, he did. He was on a search for for health and wellness, and he he, had heard about yoga from a friend and, and he went on a search in India to find this fountain of youth that he had heard about.

So somebody bumps into you in an elevator, and you've got a yoga T-shirt across your chest, and they say, what's yoga? What? What's your response? And you can go a while on this if it's not a quick answer. I love that question. You know, yoga, actually, the word yoga, if you translate it, you can. One of the more practical translations is relationship. Yoga really is about being in relationship and coming out successful. And I know that you're focusing on heart disease. Really, there's an epidemic in our country of not just heart disease, but this feeling of of of loneliness, of separation. And there's I think that heart disease more than cigarets, more than drinking alcohol and more than high fat foods, more than anything, loneliness is the greatest contributor to heart disease.

That perceived feeling of of separation, this lack of intimacy and the whole purpose of yoga is about learning how to make connections, energetic connections within yourself and with others. So can you practice yoga alone? Or is you can, and it's better to do it in the community for the human connections. Well, a lot of people have this image of a Yogi going up onto a mountain top and separating it and going on his own to, to become liberated. But really, the yogis are the ones who, after they find their liberation, they come back down and they create community and teach others.

So, yes, yoga can be of course you have to do the work yourself. And it's, it's it's really, something that you have to do yourself. But of course, you can do it. Share it with others. Yeah. And, what, you know, so you're 12 years old. You're in Hawaii. I think your father, if I don't want to, then was either a dentist or an oral surgeon with low back pain. Looking for a solution, right? Yeah. He he actually had, in the, about 4 or 5 back surgeries, and I don't know what the statistics are now, but back then, more than 50% of them fail and each one of his back surgeries failed.

Here. He was still, in severe pain. And someone said, well, you know why don't you try yoga? And surprisingly, would share what I learned. So my first opportunity to teach yoga to share yoga was in my high school. And what, even at the University of Michigan, wherever I went, I always found someone to share yoga with, so it was more organic. I really didn't want to lose this incredible practice that brought so many healing benefits to my father and myself, and those I saw around me. I didn't want to lose it.

When I came back from Hawaii, so I just started sharing it, and that was the real motivation for opening up. The very first center for yoga was just creating a community

Yoga, loneliness, and the healing power of community 7:00

that would help keep this practice alive in my own life now. And these, these, they're now all merged into the lifetime fitness chain. But I'll speak to, you know, your incredible success of, you know, for many of us, you know, the highlight of the week was the one or 2 or 3 times that we made, you know, large group classes and heated rooms. You had music and you had wisdom. And I'll share. I always was impressed because, you know, you knew me, I knew you, you know, I was a medical doctor. You're you know, you're citation of medical literature studies at Harvard on yoga and the brain, yoga and the gut yoga and blood flow.

And, you know, you obviously have had a lifelong passion for this. When did you start, introducing teacher training programs? Well, you know, it's funny that you mention my my interest in the medical world. You know, when, like I said, when yoga first came out, it was more of like, that's incredible. You know, it wasn't being evolved. Then slowly, I started watching yoga. They started talking about yoga as alternative medicine in the medical world. And then a few years later, they started talking about it as complementary.

They complemented it with other therapies. Then a few years more, they started calling it integrative medicine. They brought yoga right into the hospitals and so that really impressed me. And I, I, I saw, in the 1990, there was a man, of course, you know, him named doctor Dean Ornish, who wrote the book How to Reverse Heart Disease, How to Reverse Heart Disease Without Drugs or Surgery. And that really inspired me. That hey, this is something that the world needs. And so I, I started teaching yoga and then and then started running teacher training programs so that, that yoga had, you know, an opportunity to be shared even on a greater level.

And I think, you know, it's it's kind of you to bring up the name of Doctor Dean Ornish. He is being interviewed during this summit. And I know one of his greatest passions is talking about, community and yoga and breathwork and imagery. And it's quite radical that he introduced that in a heart disease reversal program, one of the first ever done in the world. Not just food, not just fitness, but mind, body, spirit and, yoga practice. So, somebody would come up to you and say, Johnny, you know, they've told me I'm starting to develop some blockages.

I got blood pressure. I'm struggling with my weight. Now. We're, you know, and I've never done yoga, but let's say somebody in decent shape, they can touch their toes. They haven't had five back surgeries like doctor cast your father. I mean, where are you going to start? And what would you tell them are the potential benefits for their heart, for their long term health? Well, you've kind of touched upon it when you started, when you mentioned breathwork, but I have a great story to tell you. When I started teaching yoga, one of the doctors, one of the local cardiologist, and in our area, called me up and said, I heard your your yoga teacher and we're looking for a yoga teacher.

We're trying to duplicate Doctor De Norris's program here in Michigan. We have a dietician to help manage the low fat diet. We have a therapist for to for group therapy and stress management. We have a, a, physical, assistant for to manage the aerobic part of it. So they but we need a yoga teacher. And so they interviewed me and they said, come to our cardiologists office and, and I want you to teach a class to our staff

From personal healing to teaching and teacher training 11:00

to see if you're the right teacher. So I, I taught a short class to them, and his name was Doctor Jody Rogers. And he said to me, he said to me, you know, we loved your class. We want to hire you. But what we're really looking for is a specific yoga postures that help to lower blood pressure, specific yoga postures that help to reduce hypertension. Can you give us just like, 10 or 12 yoga postures, a formula that would help to, you know, lower blood pressure and reduce hypertension and dilate the veins and arteries?

And I said to him, well, really, yoga the purpose of yoga is, is really about changing the habit pattern of your mind becoming less reactor. And when you become less reactive, your blood, your blood pressure lowers, everything starts feeling better. And he goes, well, I really want 10 or 12 yoga postures. And I said, well, I don't I don't really have that kind of knowledge where I could give you exactly which poses will will dilate your veins and arteries and reduce hypertension, but it's just a byproduct.

And he kind of he said, okay, just give me five yoga postures. He started to negotiate with like, well, that's not really how it works. But he he hired me anyways. And so after about six months into the program where I was teaching his heart patients yoga, one of the heart patients had a heart attack during the or during the the the year long program that we were working with. And he went to the hospital and he nearly died. But he he was able they were able to keep him alive. And he called me from the hospital.

He said, Johnny Yoga saved my life. Like, wow. How did yoga save your life? He goes, when the heart attack came and I felt like everything was closing in on me, and I started to get very frightened. And the more frightened I got, the more everything constricted. I felt like I was. I was almost, like, suffocating myself. The more I got scared, the more the symptoms became even stronger. And he goes, I came to my breath and I just started to observe my breath and my bodily sensations, like you taught us in class.

And then I started to relax. And the the symptoms started to subside and my chest started to and felt like it started to open to expand. And he said, if I didn't have my breath to come to because I'm quite certain I would have just. Died. And and so the I don't think Doctor Jody Rogers still really understood that, that there's not an exact formula. It's really learning how to come to your breath and become less reactive. That is the real power of yoga is is changing the fight or flight mechanism that we all have when we get scared to this more healing mechanism, this relaxation response.

It's interesting you just bring up that last little bit. It's a beautiful story I've never heard. I know Doctor Jody Rogers and we're talking really a pioneer in Detroit, and we're probably talking two and a half, three decades ago, and he was very successful with that program and give him a lot of credit. But, I was going to ask you if you think now the regular practice of breathwork, mindfulness of a flow, you know, is it ultimately a different balance between the autonomic nervous system, the parasympathetic and sympathetic?

And, a lot of this at a physiological level is, you know, less, fight or flight and more we often say rest and digest is simply static function. There's many tools that get you there. But do you think ultimately, a regular breath practice, a regular yoga practice is a perhaps the most powerful and anxious tool to rebalance that great question, doc. Yes. The breath is really one of the only functions in the body that is actually regulated by both the sympathetic nervous system and the person sympathetic nervous system.

It's both voluntary when you want to make it an involuntary. So the the yogis found that breath is the key. It's the bridge that takes you, from the conscious to the unconscious, that takes you deep into the nervous system where you can begin to change that fight or flight mechanism that often is directly related to a lot of sickness and disease. All right. So again, somebody walks up to you had lifetime fitness. I know you travel the country to a variety of gyms and teacher trainings and says, you know, I've never been in a, yoga class.

I'm not really sure what these words Ashtanga and vinyasa mean.

Yoga in cardiac care and the role of breath 16:00

What do you suggest that, you know, somebody is listening to this summit and has never been in a yoga room or a yoga video or yoga teacher? Where does the person start? It says, I want to learn what that patient of Doctor Jody Rogers, I want that tool. And where do I start? Do I find a Johnny Castle? There's not that many. Yeah. You can really go into any yoga class because if a yoga class is being taught properly, it's a breathing class first. Everything else is optional. So you can really come to a yoga class, sit on your yoga mat and just breathe.

Consciously breathe for an hour and you will feel changed afterwards. You come out feeling more. Your heart feels bigger, your body feels more relaxed, like you got a deep tissue massage just from yoga. Breathing. So I always encourage students, you know, you probably heard of that. I don't know much about saints, but there's a Saint Francis. Does you? Have you heard of him? He's the Francis of Assisi. Sure. Yes. He was the protector of the environment. Right. Relationship with the, animal kingdom.

But he said he had a famous saying. He said, start where you are, then move into what's possible. Suddenly you're doing the impossible. And so when you come to yoga, you start with what's what's necessary, and that is to breathe. Then you move into what's possible as your body feels comfortable and suddenly you're doing postures and flows that you thought were impossible. It's quite remarkable. Well, so you were you were written up, I think in the last year or two and one of the Detroit magazines that Johnny Cash Yoga and Meditation space in your home.

And it was very beautiful. And, I remember it being, just a nice piece, but the overlap between a meditative practice, a breath practice, a yoga, physical flow practice. I mean, what's the difference for those listening? You know, books written called meditation is medication by medical doctors and others. So, I mean, how do you know, do we have different buckets and tools, or is meditation an integral part of a complete yoga practice? It really is a meditation. Is is considered the highest form of yoga.

It's something that your your asana, your yoga postures and your breathwork, your pranayama actually prepare you to move into a calm and balanced state of mind, which is meditation. So, all the breathing that we do, all the movement in yoga, actually prepares you to to be in stillness. And sometimes the greatest effort you can make your is the actual, the greatest effort you can ever do is just to to be still, to do nothing. We're always reacting to come to your breath and get out of your own way takes tremendous practice, time and effort.

Yeah. Do you want to try taking a few deep breaths right now with your eyes, with love you to demonstrate and I'll, go along with you. And anything you want to do, a practical tool would be amazing. Okay, well, sometimes people have trouble with breathing exercises, so sometimes the best way to find your breath is to lose it. So we're going to practice what's called bio comebacker exhale retention. Just going to do it for less than a minute. Just try it with me. Take a deep breath in. Exhale all the way out.

You can exhale through your nose mouth. Hold your breath out to hold it out. No breathing. Yeah you can hold it out. Do a three. Any jittery posture shot soft. So that's already a good inhale. Filling in one more time. Exhale. Emptying all the way out via comebacker. Exhale. Attention. Now hold your breath out this time as long as you can. Wow. That's already over 30 45 seconds. So I could go a little longer. There you go. So that now notice how you just you just started breathing a little bit more consciously and effortlessly, effortlessly.

Sometimes the best way to really find your breath is to lose it. So you do that 2 or 3 times, maybe 4 or 5 times. Then you start taking deep, full breaths and you may already feel, do you feel a little difference in your body temperature? Yeah, I actually do have a warmed up is interesting. Yeah. Well, you know, I've told you this in the past, but one of my daily practices is the five Tibetan writes, and there actually is a sixth one in that little book that, you know, and I know of the guy in the bathing suit on the beach teaching it.

And the sixth one is that practice. That's for all you listening, supposedly, is a sexual enhancement breathing practice to do exactly what you said. So I guess I'm a little trained because I do that every morning. Three, three, deep exhalation. And this idea of, like, collapsing your abdomen towards your spine at the same time, it's so it's actually a wonderful therapeutic feeling. What about alternate nostril breathing? I know you're, people listening may have no idea what I just said, so why don't you take it and run with it?

Yeah. So alternate nasal breathing is another wonderful pranayama technique where we.

Breathing practices and nasal breathing benefits 22:00

We're not really aware of it, but at any one point throughout the day, depending on the time of day, even your mood, you're breathing through one nostril or the other. And so this is, this is a good way to to balance that, the right and left hemisphere of your brain, you just take your thumb and then your two fingers curl in, and then your pinky finger and ring finger go on the other nostril so your thumb is on your right nostril. If you're using your right hand and your two fingers on your left nostril, and then you inhale through one.

And then you close the other one and you exhale. Inhale inhale again through the right. Now thumb closes the right. Exhale through the left. Inhale through the left. Close the left. Exhale through the right. Like that. Alternate nostril breathing. And again surprisingly if you do this just for a minute or two, you start feeling just more relaxed. There's something that happens when you consciously, intensely breathe through your right nostril, and then your left nostril wants what's the Sanskrit name for alternate, not Shona okay.

Not yeah. Not yeah. Not East Hashana. Alternate nostril breathing. Right. I think I can credit you. I certainly remember being told that mouth breathing is dirty and nasal breathing is the way we're built. And actually now we know then I can share. And I'm sure you know that that is scientifically seemingly correct. But talk about that a little bit about, you know, learning training. Just some of the things we did to emphasize nasal breathing during the day and at night. I'm really glad you're you're you're asking that question.

There's a great book out there by James Nester called breathe, and I really recommend that to all your listeners and all your viewers, to go out and get that book. It talks about all the medical benefits, and it gives you a number of pranayama exercises that you can start doing at home for your own benefit. But one of the thing experiments he did is he actually, taped or his nose or closed off his nostrils for a whole month and just breathe through his mouth. And he kept a journal, and he was under medical guidance of all the different things that happened to him.

But when we breathe through our mouth, it's a sign of stress. There's very few animals, even on the planet, that breathe through their mouth. Breathing through your nose is a sign of relaxation. It's almost impossible to hyperventilate through your nose easily through your mouth. So one of the things, if you ever want to know how someone's doing, you don't even have to ask them. Just notice their breathing. When you go visit a, sick person in a hospital, notice the breath of a sick person is very often distinct.

They're often breathing through their mouth. Their breath is often very short, shallow, chaotic. So breathing through your nose naturally is a sign of of health, of relaxation. Probably more important than ever. We learned in this pandemic is simple tools to, you know, augment your health and, augment your immune system with yoga has also been shown to, improve, although the focus here is on cardiovascular. But, you know, I actually pulled up for a moment, in case anybody's wondering, you know, this is a New Age interview and, yoga, I mean, there are many, many medical research studies and references and yoga.

Just, in the last year and a Journal of Complementary and Therapeutic Medicine. The title of the article, like all of them, is yoga for the Secondary Prevention of Coronary Heart Disease. A systematic review. And they actually were able to find studies that included 5000 patients, some that were enough just to exercise practice, some they were specifically a yoga. And breathing practice. They talk about, you know, observed changes, people listening as well. I want to know you can lower your cholesterol, you can lower your triglycerides, you can raise your HDL cholesterol.

We mentioned you can lower your blood pressure, you can lower your weight with the regular yoga practice and really interesting. And people who are having heart rhythm problems like atrial fibrillation. There have been randomized studies that you can actually have less racing, skipping, palpitations by adopting a regular yoga practice, I mean the usual approaches or medicine or surgical procedures, pacemakers, but just some of those simple breathing techniques. And you mentioned the words Ashtanga.

And yeah, so these are scientifically backed.

Research, diet, and ahimsa in daily life 27:00

Of course, they're not incorporated in all cardiology programs or cardiac rehab programs, but I think you already set the standard by doing that decades ago for Doctor Rogers. And we can look forward to more. Tell us a little bit about you personally. I mean, you could eat any died in the world. I'm setting you up here, but, how many animal products and dairy products and all are in your diet? I guess you could call me vegan ish. Okay, there's, I do. We have, some hens in the backyard, and occasionally I will have one of their eggs.

Just occasionally. But mostly. Yeah, mostly, a plant based diet that, I feel very, very healthy, and and it's actually, as I get older, it becomes even more and more important because anytime I veer from it, even with if I, if I have too much gluten or sugar, I can feel it right away. And maybe, share with the audience the term ahimsa and how that fits into your life. And a yoga practice. Yeah, that's really my motivating force is to to practice, heart centered diet. If you, kind of think of a diet, there's there's, an ego centered diet, I would say, where you just eat whatever, whatever makes whatever pleases you, and then you have maybe a health center diet, which you're eat, you're told what to eat, that's healthy.

And then I feel like there's a heart centered diet where you're, you're, you're really choosing when you eat three times a day. It's kind of like you're choosing either kindness or cruelty. You're really making a choice on how you're affecting not just animals, but the entire planet. I think there's a lot of information already, Joe, on how, vegetarian or vegan diet is actually, has the biggest impact on climate change, right? It's it's the kind of diet, without a doubt. I, I have two t shirts that both say a little cos I'm a star Suki now, but one, two.

And I think I first heard that from you and said I have to memorize that. So just share with us. I'm not trying to impress anybody that's on my shirt, but tell us what that means. And you know, how you've used that in class. Yeah. So Loka sama star, Suki Noble. And to me, all beings be happy. May all beings be free. And when you're. When you're really. When you're practicing yoga, you really feel that universal connection. Like we talked about in the very beginning of this interview. The purpose of yoga is to dissolve away the walls and barriers that that we proceed to separate us.

Loneliness is, the great illusion. We we think we're separate. But when you start practicing yoga, especially even in a yoga class, when you first come into a yoga class, you notice everything that separates you. Other people's bodies of this person is bigger than me, this person smaller. You notice, what everybody's wearing. What everybody smells like. You feel everything that separates you. By the end of the yoga class, it's not uncommon that you feel like. The person next to you there, there's nothing that separates you.

You just feel like the sense of of no separation between self and other. Before the pandemic, we used to hold the hand. Well, we'd hold hands after class at the a point where you're not even sure which hand is yours. It's just, there's just a feeling of of union. Know. Beautiful. What about one step further? Your own typical practice? Do you do you have a daily flow and, breathwork practice that you've done for years? I do, I do, I mostly I my, my practice has moved to a much a very strong meditation practice.

So I'll sit in, in silence for two hours a day, an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening. That's pretty, pretty regular, two hours of meditation a day. And then, my, my arsenal practice is mostly, Ashtanga based. So if you're familiar with Ashtanga, there's, sun salutation, a sun salutation, B centrality A is ten breaths, ten movements. Sun salutation. Letter B is 18 breaths, 18 movements. Then there's about 26 standing postures. And then there's a, another 26 seated postures. And a lot of emphasis on balance.

Right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's, a lot of balancing postures. And if you, you were kind of talking about this before, when you were talking about the human body and a lot of the things.

Meditation, balance, and Jonny Kest's teaching legacy 32:00

But our our bodies are designed to be perfect healing machines. They seem it often the body seems actually really ultimately very fair. You get in what you put it, you get out of your body what you put it. So I'm really glad that you brought up a daily practice because you really have to do the work. Yeah. And so just add just a side note, one of the most interesting medical research studies in 2022, kind of offbeat, was a big database of whether you could stand on one foot for 10s or more, or it didn't have the ability to balance and stand on one foot for 10s and more.

And they did this in thousands of people 15 years ago and followed them for actual illness and death and the inability to have that, that balance, that, strength. And actually was a very strong predictor of a poor outcome. So, yeah, I'm sure you would maintain, you know, that one of the benefits among so many others is indeed emphasizing, practicing and improving your balance. I'm going to share that in class tomorrow. I think it was a great study. Well, I'll follow up and send it to you, but it is indeed, quite a well done research study.

Yeah, I think that's why kids love yoga. Joel, because there's so many balancing postures, and they love that challenge of of actually falling out of it because they feel like they're growing. They feel like they're being challenged. And so whenever kids come to class, I always do a lot of, I often even teach kids yoga, but we always do a lot of balancing postures. They love that, people can find you on a website. Yeah. So you can go to Instagram. Johnny Cash yoga. That's probably the best way to find me, but, Instagram.

But, and there's Johnny Cars.com as well. And of course, if they're a member of Lifetime Fitness, there's teacher training. Humbly, how many students do you think you've certified in 200 hour plus, our weight programs? Well, well, you know, lifetime is an amazing, like you said, super gym. It's almost like a country club. And they have almost 200 locations. And our teacher training program that was developed and designed by me is taught at most of their locations. So we're talking thousands and thousands of now.

It's really, students that have become yoga teachers. Just little sparks of light all over the United States, all over the world, because I know people traveled to Detroit from all over the United States for your teacher training programs, and now they can have them in all these different gyms all over the United States. Powerful stuff. Sure, you got lots of energy left in you, but you have got quite a legacy there. Well, now with this zoom, it's incredible. We've been doing teacher trainings online with people from Africa and Australia and, Europe.

So it's been really quite amazing how this technology has brought even more of us together. And then you've got a son, Jonah, your oldest is wandering the world teaching yoga, although maybe he's back in the United States. For a little. So he's he's in Berlin right now teaching yoga. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Jonah. Jonah. Cast. So if you haven't, these people will be listening to this, and, all the world. So he's more he's more interesting to follow. If you want to check out Jonah's Instagram, it's cast yoga.

He's got, some amazing, stories and photographs on his Instagram. This photography is incredible all over the world, so thank you for taking the time from your family. You still have a absolutely gorgeous, delightful daughter at home. We could use some daddy time, but, appreciate you sharing people listening all over the world. This is going to reach many, many people. And, somebody is going to benefit from this. Maybe a whole lot of somebody. So thank you again. And of course, we have to close with a little namaz day here.

Not a stage all. Thank you. So much for for sharing this with the world. That heart disease cannot, you know, cannot be just taken care of with drugs and medicine. You need to approach it multifaceted. So, so glad you're bringing this other, this other angle to it. And I will just say, that's such a great way to close. So much of the summit interviews are about root cause in this case of heart illness. And if you don't or, you know, approach anger and stress and trauma and, you know, it's kind of the tight inner distrust that people develop over time.

And yoga can open that heart and be the be the path to curing that. You know, I agree with you. Pill and, surgical blade are very much a Band-Aid at best. All right, well, let's take a deep breath together again. A big inhale. Exhale. Let it go. And watch everything change. Excellent. God bless. We'll catch up soon.