The Yin and Yang of Desire

Welcome to Hotness, the podcast that brings you practical tools to balance your hormones and rekindle connection, confidence, and desire in midlife and beyond.

I'm your host, Dr. Liz Lister. Hotiness is a safe space for honest conversations about menopause, sex, identity, love, loss, reinvention, and desire, because you can embrace your hotness at every age.

Welcome to Hotness, the podcast where hormones, confidence, and desire come back online. Oh my goodness, my interview with Dr. Elizabeth Boyd, who you may have seen the solo interview I did with her, but this time it's with our beloved partner of many, many years, 25 years they've been together, married most of those years I believe, Freddie Zentalweaver.

And it is just magic as it always is with the two of them. We really look at I use the word hotness, but really it's intimacy and circuitry between the masculine and feminine.

We really go into that. It's just a delightful conversation. Also, I recommend watching this episode. There's a lot of visual gestures. Elizabeth is very lovely as she describes sexual rising and falling versus the increasing in sexual and sensual energy that then stays elevated and how to bring those together between ourselves and those that we love.

It's just an awesome conversation. So please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Elizabeth Point and her beloved husband, Freddy Zental-Lever. Welcome to Hotness.

Welcome, to you both, Dr. Elspeth, who we have had the beautiful opportunity to do one of these conversations. And now I'm so delighted to have your beloved, Freddie Zenthal-Weaver here with us.

So welcome to both of you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Liz. Great to be here, with you, good to see you again. Yes, absolutely. I think we've known each other a few years now and you have both seen me through a lot.

So, just love you both. Start out by saying that. Freddie, I want to start us off talking about being in midlife. Women in Midlife are doing a They are doing a lot of introspection as well as work on their health.

There's a little bit of, I'm going to say it's perception, but I am turning it over to you to comment that men are not necessarily doing as much work themselves in midlife.

Can I just let you take that from there and see what you think is happening? Yeah, well, you know, I think the guys are just starting to catch up because it hasn't been as in the news or talked about men's menopause.

And what happens for us is we wane lots on the erection and lots of erectile enhancers, out there for guys. But there's a whole emotional component, as you and all of the stuff that's happening.

So there is a lot of availability now in science for guy's terms of testosterone replacement therapy, which I did. which is great because a lot of guys don't recognize the symptoms of the irritable nests you know there's a sexual part of it but then there is the emotional part too so really being present to all of that and what's available guys are just starting to catch up with women and women have been doing and you're working with for so long and lingam care.

and lingam care. Penis, penis care, because a lot of guys, you know, they think, oh, well, I will take a Viagra and I'm good. And it's for the act and that's great.

Then there's the emotional stuff and then there are no erections in the morning and there is just a sense of a loss of energy. So, what I have taken on over the years, and 70 now, 70 in March, is doing particular practices with my lingam or penis that strengthen it, just like working out.

And we can go into more detail on that in another episode. But, you know, it's paying attention to myself sexually that requires a little more attention than it did when I was in my 30s, 40s or even 50s.

I talk about this with patients all the time, with women, all of the times is that for us women it's a little more in our face, the hormonal decline. It's more on our faces, more dramatic symptoms, whereas for men it is more gradual.

takes a little more, I don't know. I mean, a lot of men in my practice, mostly women, but most of the men that I do have are from women in their lives who care about them saying, you need to go get your hormones checked.

Yeah, just wanted to add that lingam is a Sanskrit term. So from East India and it means translated into English, it needs magic wand or wand of light, which is the penis.

Much more endearing than dickhead. So Freddie has a whole wand ritual and the other part I would say also taking care of the body in general, not just about the sexual health or the wand or Lingam health.

It's like also, you know, exercising and nutrition and all of it. And as you said, I also would that men are catching up more and, some of them are very into it now.

Yeah, the supplements. I mean, Ellsberg gives me a handful of supplements every morning. And when I've cleaned myself, you know, on the third swallow, then that throat is open, and that usually doesn't.

But all of that working out regularly and eating, yes. Yeah. Absolutely. The hormones are very important, but so is everything else. You're absolutely right.

Let's talk about something that I've learned from you both in workshops with you and reading the things that you email out, etc. The work, the books that I'm going to just use the word libido.

I am not 100% sure that's the right word. We can fix that. But the way it works in the masculine versus the feminine, so this is how I describe it to people, but that I would like you both who are my teachers on this to elaborate that for men, the emotional connection starts lower and moves up to the heart center, and in the feminine, it's the reverse.

So it really starts more in heart-center and then moves down. It's a nice circuitry when it is in place. And it isn't necessarily male-female, but I hate to be totally heteronormative, We're talking about the masculine and the feminine.

So can you say a little bit more for us? A lot of women come to me for low libido is part of what's happening with them. Yes. You know, this question is really speaks to one key concern, conflict, struggle.

many couples have. And we don't learn about this, you know, when we grow up, that when you look at male sexual energy, it rises quickly, gets easily excited, and then drops quickly.

Unlike feminine sexual And it's all about reawakening. However, when the energy is re-awaken, it can stay on a plateau or just be in an orgasmic ether, have multiple orgasms.

So instead of this, the man came and went and she hangs out here, literally, waiting this where we meet on Very nice practice. So is that we teach tantra.

There are practices for the man to cultivate this, that he can circulate, channel and sustain, and for a woman to reawaken. Also, when we use feminine and masculine, it's not just male and female because the feminine masculine or let's call it yin and yang from the Chinese tradition because then we don't have that preconceived notion that feminine is male necessarily.

The way we used it here is The feminine is the yielding, the flowing, this circular like that awakening of energy. Yeah, it can be in a next couple. It, you know, one, if there is not yin and yang in the same sex couple or a bisexual couple, or transgender couple or whatever mix it is, if there is no polarity of yin and yang like sky and earth, you know, moon and sun, like this, You know?

Yes, absolutely. And you're showing us a visual of the ying and yang. I want to just pause one second and just say that most people listen to podcasts, but If you're listening to this, go and check out the YouTube video because you will see Elizabeth's beautiful gestures as she's describing the rise and fall, the quick rise-and-fall of the yang or masculine sexual response versus the sort of gently rising and then can stay higher.

So the visuals are really great. Okay, now we can keep going. You can see the yin and yang. Most people have seen that. It looks like the two fish that each have.

Hold that up one more time for us. Yeah, it's okay because each one has the eye of the other Which is also something that was very recently pointed out to me that I really hadn't thought about that the masculine has also the circle of The feminine within it and and vice versa.

Yeah and let's bring it back to the hormonal which is testosterone and estrogen we all have testosterone we have all Have estrogen. It's a question of proportion Yeah, let me jump in because at the beginning in the womb there's zygotes and we're, you know, androgynous, then it's decided for whatever reason, male or female, one has more estrogen, testosterone, as we get older the whole thing reverses itself.

So what we are talking about here is how can we be present to this polarity that was mentioned earlier energetic, you know, and that's the balance because, yeah, You may be, uh, grounded in masculine gender or feminine gender, but that energetic piece can be with gender to gender.

Or, vice versa, because it's also in how we are in relationship. And sometimes the woman is more masculine than the man and then it may reverse itself.

So how can we be present to that? And a lot of what we teach your practices and how to be president to the energetic self. because that's as real as the rest.

Yeah, it's beautiful. I love that. The emotional component there is like being in the feminine, so to speak, the yin energy. Again, as Freddie said, a man can be just in his ying energy without becoming a woman or woman-like, because the characteristic of that energy is that we are open to receive.

You know, the yang energy is the giving energy. The yin energy, is to receiving energy but like in love making, you know it's not only for the woman to receive.

There is something in The giving. The man receiving. Man receiving, yes. So, for the man in the tantric practices, one of the primary edicts in all the variations of Tantra there are is for man to learn to separate ejaculation from orgasm.

And for a lot of guys, that's all they've heard about or know about with Tanta. It's like, oh, it's a sexy yoga, I'll be able to last longer. And some guys, well, I'm not a quick comer, but what I am talking about is not lasting.

We're talking consciously circulating what i call this orgasmic nectar. And that's with breath, energy awareness, and some muscle practices. Because for guys the thing that shifts in all areas of life when we bring consciousness to this part of our energetic self is how we are being energetically and emotionally.

For guys there's two emotions that are like okay for us to show and that is excuse my French, fucking or fighting. intimacy, nurturing, love. Don't cry on the football field or the gridiron or in the war scene.

We cry after we've been killing and fighting, then we allow some emotion. For a minute. Yes. So, for the guys, that energetic emotional connection starts in the penis or the lingam, and so that's why for a lot of guys for women it appears that all he wants to do is screw me when he gets an erection.

And for guy who's not conscious, it appear that that is all that he want, is that pleasure. But what we're really after are those three seconds of orgasmic moment where we are free of all of that constrict emotionally.

We can cry, we can laugh, Unabashed. So when a man starts to learn to separate ejaculation from orgasm, what starts open up is a newfound freedom in all areas of life.

The energetic life listing, the emotional self starts become more present, more aware, and more available. And that's where Tantra takes on a whole other experience for men particularly and women as well.

Oh, honestly, it's the beauty of dating in midlife is that women and men, they're both really arriving at that place of maybe the biological imperative is a little bit less.

I'm not sure. Well, I'll put more thought into that. But it really is great. Everybody in Midlife and beyond is at that place of looking inward, okay, not everybody, but a lot of people, more than when we were in our 20s, and we're totally focused on the external world and what we have to produce and the career we go pursue and, what does everyone think of us, because they're always telling us what to do and think about people at those ages.

So, that's a really fun aspect of that. Yeah, growing older and staying healthy so that we can take advantage of all of the wisdoms that were collected along the way.

So, Liz, can we go back to your question about the circularity, you know, when you said for men it goes differently than for women or in the masculine differently, than in I just want to build on that further, what you opened up there.

So most women, when they want connect with their partner, no matter if he is male or female or anywhere on the spectrum, start feeling it in their heart center.

They want a connect, they feel it here. Most men or the one that is in there masculine could be a lesbian couple, which we often get. that the one in the lesbian couple that identifies more with the yang energy says, what you just said about males and transmuting their wand energy, it's exactly like that for me.

So for the ones who is in their masculine energy when they want to connect, they start feeling it in sexual center. That is where the feeling starts. So, which is wonderful.

That is not a right place for the starting. The question is, what am I sending out that can either open up receptivity Or down. So sometimes raw sexual energy can appear like lusting, which is more self-concerned.

There's nothing wrong about lust. It's just, it is the only way that we can connect with that energy. it's very limiting. And the lesting energy is not conducive for connection.

While it feels like I desire, I want, but it's so self-oriented that I cannot be truly the other and listen. And so for the one in the masculine, in Tendrik practice, they learn to move up that arousal or that feeling of wishing to connect up into their heart.

When freddy's heart opens guess what my heart open because that is where i have already felt that i want to connect this is not an intellectual thing and then once my hard open.

My Yoni opens, my sexual center opens. Yes, I've already talked about your beautiful Yone puppet that you showed in the interview that I did together.

So people, if you missed that episode, you must come so you can see your purple velvet puppet. Yes, then we have a circuit. His open heart, I open hard.

Then my Yoni, my sexual center, and my sacred space opens. And then it's a circle going back to Freddy's sexual Center. and then, we are in a circuity where we flow together.

Once we flow together like this, we can reverse it. Starting out, We usually want to start out with the one in their masculine energy, bringing it up into the heart.

And then, because again, I'm as a feminine, and I, want it to be, you know, embrace, tune with it, get into it while Friday maybe, oops, it's already there.

Let's go. Yeah, that conscious circulating is good for guys, but it's available to any guy, anybody in a body who's willing. Yes, I would like you to say more about that, Freddie.

Men's experience of intimacy, if you can just say a little bit more that. And let me preface this with saying that I talk about this, which is the model of libido or sexual desire that was developed by Masters and Johnson is very linear and very masculine-based.

Whereas there's a new model, well new, it's now been about 30 years. Dr. Shirley Basson created this beautiful circle with all these arrows that lead into it.

But shed some more light for us on what's happening in a man's mind related to intimacy in particular. Yeah, that intimacy, into me, I see. So that willingness to be with stillness, the willingness in the nothingness which is meditation teaches us how to stay, stay present.

You know, we're all just heady, intellectual, mind, left brain, analytical beings, you know. Learning to with the breath and being what I call the curious witness of that is new for anybody in a body.

and yet it's familiar because we know that place. We were in the womb at some point, you know, and it was just quiet and the heart was beating. And so, to return to that as a grown, evolved homo sapien requires some tending.

So, we teach a particular kind of breathing and that starts to give one a sense of how busy the mind is and some flattening of that story that then has a cascading effect in emotions and energy self.

So, for men, you know, it's like for anybody in a body, learning how to be with that stillness and to learn to move with the sexual energy without being run by it.

You know that I got to do something or is it big enough or hard enough? Or, all the stories, love, shame, fear, jealousy, and all that stuff. So when we start doing a sexual meditation practice for They start to unencumber how this stuff has won.

And then there's a freedom that opens up. That intimacy starts to become much more available for them with themselves, firstly, and secondly, in relationship in the way that they're living and being in their life.

She's always got something there. Of course, of course. That's the beauty of the circuitry with the two of you that I love so much. Yeah, absolutely. So, for guys, it's a new learning and a familiar learning, because once they return to it, they go, oh, this is familiar.

It's new, but it is Yeah, actually just something came to me, which is like from the woman's side is that for me the tantric practice, the Tantric learning.

Now we have engaged in the practice as well as in teaching for the last 25 years. So that's very familiar for now. What are you in the early years what i became aware of i said wow that's a lot i actually don't know about the masculine.

You know, where I assumed from this view over here, I assume I knew from the men I had dated, from love making. But a whole new world opened up through these conscious practices where, as a woman giver in one of the practices, one the rituals, and I'm there to support Freddie.

in circulating his energy, where I don't get involved like we do in lovemaking where we have back and forth. This is really where be hold giver and receiver these two roles throughout the entire practice.

And in that something opens up because I can be with Freddie instead of getting caught up in my own stuff. Now that doesn't mean that I may not feel aroused.

doesn't mean that I may at some moment be perturbed when he tells me, makes a request for what he wants. Am I not doing it right? Am not good enough? You know, when that stuff comes up.

Right, the voice, a critical voice. To hear it instead of getting caught up in it, which then sets, that sets me free so that I can be fully there for him and celebrate and honor this wonderful, masculine, testosterone, powerful energy or his tenderness at moments.

Yeah, Elizabeth's talking about a particular ritual that we teach, our sexual meditation practice. And it doesn't take the place of mutual lovemaking, but it gives the receiver and the giver an opportunity to be in the altered state of this sexual energetic space to then use what we are working with in that altered stage to get to some intention that I've not been able to to before.

talk therapy, we have some people doing plant medicine. There's lots of approaches to getting to this unconscious self that often is running what's happening.

So, there's something I want in relationship or in life that doesn't seem to show up, so what am I not knowing that I'm doing to get what I am getting?

So it's in this altered state as a meditation that we're teaching people to to that. And there's particular, you know, protocols to do it. And it works again.

It's just it's that state that's available to all of us in a body that has been around longer than we've been speaking or having language. Right, that was at an aftermarket.

That's exactly where I was going to take us, because I know that we could talk for hours. We're not going do that today, but we have lots of yummy ideas.

I've But I was about to say that I know what the two of you are talking about because I've worked with you, gone to Chicago, but also worked you online.

And so you have singles workshops. You have couples work that you do. So please tell us if people want to learn more or reach out to you or even participate in a workshop, which I always recommend.

How can people best reach you? Thank you. Yeah, so actually we have a workshop coming up. We call it a co-ed workshop where it means that there are women and men, couples, singles.

Again, this is not just for heterosexual people. And that's coming out in the middle of January. And that lays the foundation becoming aware of energy at first we want to become aware subtle energy before we go to the sexual rituals because if we don't become where of our saddle energy how it shows up in the physical body in demotion party in a mental party.

In the spiritual body we cannot channel that aroused energy. Without that, it's almost like a restructuring of the nervous system that is called for so that we then can move aroused energy through the channel from the base of spine to the top of head.

There is this channel. Where life was energy moves up and down all the time, often without our knowing, but we can become aware of it. And life is energy, sexual energy.

So that foundation workshop is both for you to learn about yourself more, your energetic self, and how to move that subtle energy And then in relationship, how that circuituity, you know, How can we just connect our heart circuity, or our sexual center circuituity, Or our third eye circuitutity?

You know? And more visuals that people need to go and look at the YouTube video to see. You know that we can practice this both within ourselves and with our beloved.

And since this workshop is also open for singles, if you come as a single, you pair up with a practice partner that you provide. And this is not about having sex together, there's no nudity, it's a very safe environment where each of you who is listening and are interested in it can explore how that may feel to you, what you may discover about yourself and in the dynamic of relationship, be that your beloved partner or a practice partner.

It doesn't matter because the body cannot distinguish the nervous system if it's a practiced partner, or beloved, because we show up the same everywhere.

However, it can enlighten us. So that is coming up. And then, of course, also, you know, our book Sexual Enlightenment, if anyone is interested to learn more about it, read it.

It's available both in hard copy and audible on Amazon. Wonderful. I love that very much. Well, again, we will be seeing each other again both in this podcast as well as in person.

Now, Freddie, I have a particular question that I always ask my guests at the end of the podcast. I'm going to modify it, but when I get to interview it when it's just the two of us, i will give you the original version and also you'll listen to Elizabeth's answer.

So the way I am going modify the question is as a couple, how do you Of course, there's a component for each of you, but also I want to hear between you.

The word the people use is the spark. What's something that you do, a particular thing that do to access that spark for the relationship? Well, today we went and we walked on the beach and do things that sparked our energetic self individually and collectively, things we both love to do, individually love do.

And doing those things, touching regularly, kissing, hugging, working together, living together for the last 25 years, is really 50 years. So, you know, it's an ongoing practice for us.

So what we're sharing in these podcasts and in workshops is what were doing all the time. It's a moment-by-moment thing. Not that things don't stop happening, they just don t stick around as long.

Letting go of story making, coming back to just being, breathing, and gratefulness really shifts everything. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah, there's a breathing connection practice that Elsbeth mentioned, which is part of what we do with energetic or sexual energetic circulating too, where you breathe and you visualize receiving energy and sending energy.

And it's not just a story, it is like really putting your attention and intention on a location and sensation. Then you're using your mind to actually move energetic breath and sensations.

It's the most nourishing practice for me. often just in the middle of the day, either in kitchen or in our office where our desks are closed together, you know, one of us comes over and we just embrace and breathe together heart to heart, receive love and send love.

And that's just the focus perhaps for three or four breaths. It doesn't take much. No. And it's so delicious, so blissful, So connected, and it erases any upset, any cloud.

It just brings us together like that. I love that so much. You know, Freddie, the word that I normally use in that last question is the Word Hotness, right?

The name of the podcast. And so I just want to wrap us up by thanking you both for really sharing what I mean about hotness. That's what I'm talking about is life, energy, vitality, love for ourselves, Love for each other.

That the whole point as far as I am concerned. So I happy to be able to correct that idea that people might have about hotness, that we're only talking sex.

We're talking that connection that all want. And that's why it's on the list of reasons that I love the two of you so very much. and have enjoyed our work together and look forward to a lot more work As a gift for listening, go to drlizmd.com forward slash hotness for your free midlife guide filled with powerful support for you mind, body and soul because you can embrace your hotnes at every age.