Introduction to Self-Sabotage

Welcome back to the Heal Your Brain masterclass. I'm your host, Doctor David Jockers, and today I've got the honor of interviewing Doctor Audrey Schnell.

And we're talking about how to rewire your brain and finally break the pattern of self-sabotage. There are so many people who are smart and motivated, but they struggle to improve their health even when they know exactly what to do.

And that's because they've got some internal issues that are causing self-sabotage. We're going to go through that in detail. Doctor Audrey Schnell is a coach, speaker, and strategist who helps high achieving professionals stop getting in their own way and create vibrant health, wealth, freedom and momentum that actually lasts.

With a background in clinical psychology and a PhD in epidemiology and biostatistics, Audrey brings a rare combination of scientific rigor and practical insight to human behavior and change.

Her work focuses on why smart, capable people struggle to translate insight into action not a lack of motivation or confidence, but outdated internal models, hidden blindspots, and internal systems that quietly drive self-sabotage.

And again, we're talking all about how to rewire your brain and finally break the pattern of self-sabotage. You can also find Doctor Audrey Schnell work at audreyschnell.com.

That's audreyschnell.com. Be sure to check out her website. You guys are in for a treat with this interview. And here we go. We'll get started with it.

Well, here I am with Doctor Audrey Schnell, and we're talking all about self-sabotage. One of the main things that's holding a lot of people back from reaching their health goals and really goals in every area of their life, relationships, finances.

I mean, in so many areas, just, self-sabotage is a really big thing, and all of us do it to some degree, and some people do it a lot more than others.

And let's talk about how to what self-sabotage is and really best strategies for for breaking that. Great to be with you, doctor Audrey. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me here.

Yeah, it's the human condition. You know, it doesn't mean that sometimes we feel crazy because we end up not doing what we want to do or. Or even worse, doing the opposite.

And then we go down the rabbit hole of what's wrong with me? When really self-sabotage is just the human condition and should really maybe be called self survival because it's us, those resistance to change that fear, not necessarily fear of failure or success, just fear of the unknown.

Fear of doing something different. That just derails people and it creates, you know, the more you don't do what you want to do, the more you lose self-confidence, self-trust.

Why Self-Sabotage Happens

And so you people get stuck in that kind of failure loop and, and have trouble getting out of it when they really want. You know, it's not a lack of discipline necessarily, or motivation or intelligence.

It's just learning how to overcome those, those roadblocks that we all have. You know, like you said, some more than others. But we all have it somewhere.

And it's actually a good thing in a way, because it says, yeah, I'm doing something new. I'm doing something important, and I just have to look at the ways I'm holding myself back, getting in my own way. Yeah, yeah. No doubt.

Now I always talk about how health is really. It's it's a it's a positive momentum cycle. So for example, you know, when you get a good night's sleep, you're more motivated the next day to get more movement in, to exercise, to make better, you know, nutrition choices.

But when you don't sleep well, you're more irritated. You're rushed, you're stressed, you're not thinking about getting uncomfortable through exercise, or you know, you're looking for some sort of stress relief from the food you're eating.

So that's typically going to be more of your comfort foods, maybe more caffeine, things like that. And so when it comes to health, a lot of it is is really the momentum cycle, right.

One good habit leads. It makes it easier to follow another good habit and vice versa, right? One negative habit can oftentimes lead us down a cycle of more negative habits.

And so what are some of the root like what's what kind of what's the underlying psychology with this. Well you know the easiest thing is always the easiest thing.

So especially when we're tired we are going to go the easiest route. We don't have. Our brain isn't operating at full force. And I'll talk about this more as the talk goes on.

But so we rely, we go back to what's easy. What's easy? Convenience food, things that I'm used to. And then, of course, that, as you said, goes into the cycle of, well, I'm not getting results or I'm disappointed in myself, which then leads to more of the things I don't want.

So some sometimes people will say, well, what's, you know, what's the best thing to do for self-sabotage? And just kind of like you said, I say get a good night's sleep.

Yeah. Because it's it's really hard to engage your, your higher brain when you're tired. I mean, there's, there's no doubt that's like a big trigger for me.

Like I'm a really disciplined person. I like structure you. Most people would look at me and be like, oh man, he lives a perfect lifestyle. But, you know, there as a business owner, as a former athlete, like, I'm really driven to win in a sense.

Right. And there's times like in my business where like, maybe I do a I make a video and I don't feel like I did my best where I feel like I did not win there.

And I get frustrated with myself. And, you know, the biggest thing for me is it's a reminder. I'm I'm probably a little bit tired. I need I need a good night's sleep.

Like I need to really focus on a good night's sleep, get out of this negative cycle. Yeah, well, I'll tell you that everybody, including my husband, laughs at me because I'm in bed by 8:00.

Good for you know, but he. Nobody screws in my sleep. Anybody who knows me knows not to call after seven. So. Yeah. And and and like I said, you know, what happens is we also are so harsh on ourselves sometimes when we don't do our best, that that can also be self-defeating because then we get down on ourselves, our energy lowers, our brain immediately goes to when this gets to the rewiring idea, goes to what's wrong?

What's negative, why? Well, biologically evolutionary wise, what's wrong will kill you. What's right? We're not. So we're kind of preprogramed to look for what's going to kill me, what's wrong here?

And so we get caught up in looking at what's wrong, looking at our failures, and then that just drives the negative versus focusing on what almost like power steering.

You got to force yourself to look at okay, what what well what's right. What am I doing. Well. And that just makes everything work better. Our energy is better.

Our our psychology is better. We need to focus on, on or not ignore what needs to change but not be, you know, just focused on, oh, I screwed up again.

Yeah. It's a part of our brain, our reticular activating system in our brain stem. And it's designed to help keep us alive. Like you mentioned. Like, you know, for for our ancestors, they're stressors.

We're in, you know, doing poorly on a making a video or something like that. But it's like they're, they're stressors. Where am I going to get killed by, you know, this wild animal, right?

Or am I going to get ostracized from my tribe and from my clan from for the activities and I'm doing or whatever it is.

Sleep, Stress, and Momentum Cycles

And so, so we're wired to perceive things that could be a threat, is what you're saying. That's stress over, you know, basically survival over thriving in a sense.

Exactly. And then what I like, unfortunately, separates us from the animals is after that threat is gone, you know, the zebras don't sit around the water cooler going, I really should have done a better job of that.

Oh, yeah. You're referring to the great book Why Zebras don't get ulcers, right? Exactly. Ulcers. There's a stress component behind people getting ulcers.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And we do that and we get caught up in that. And that again just leads to things. Where you out? I know for me, stay focused on what I didn't do.

Well, it just it just limits me even more. I don't take new risks. I, I literally almost shut down. And so it's so important, I think, to have to focus on the wins and to have the support, you know, the reminders to, to shift our focus.

Yeah. That's so good. And I know that adverse childhood experiences, these aces, adverse childhood experiences, can play a big role in self-sabotaging behaviors.

And people that have a higher amount of adverse childhood experiences tend to have more self-sabotaging behaviors. Can you touch on that a little bit?

Sure. Well, trauma and and we have to. First let me say that we have to also remember that looking back, we may look at things like, oh, my mom forgot to pick me up at daycare when I was four with our adult brain.

Doesn't sound like trauma, so we don't take it into into consideration the effect it's had. But to a four year old, getting left to daycare is trauma and and those things stick with us and they limit our options.

They they change how we see the world, how self-protective we are. Which again goes to kind of the root of self-sabotage, which is keep me safe. I don't want even if I want, you know, to eat better and new foods and lose weight or, you know, deal with my stress differently.

All of that is new is change. And change is even if it's change we want can be stressful and we can avoid it because it's the unknown. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Any sort of lifestyle change, it could seem simple on paper. Yeah. Like the idea of okay, yeah, I need to start walking 10,000 steps a day. But if you're not used to doing that, just that alone.

Just making a habit out of that is a it's a mild form of stress. But if you're overwhelmed by stress already, that mild form of stress can seem like a really like like just a huge load of stress.

Yeah. And I think it's so let me know if I start to get like too far afield. But I think the mistake sometimes we make also is not to have the support in place to help us sustain those changes, which don't seem like a lot, but life starts to happen and what goes out the window first, sadly, are the foundations for things that support us the most, because often there aren't immediate negative consequences.

And so as humans, we focus on what is immediate and we let go. And sometimes that letting go means self-care. True positive change goes out the window without the, you know, a support group or the environment that makes it easy to do that or, you know, other systems.

So it's not just habits. It's almost like a systems and environment that will support that change. What do we know makes change successful? Accountability is is a big one.

Accountability and support are two of the biggest factors that lead to lasting change. Yeah, there's no doubt. That's like for example, if somebody is addicted to a drug.

Oh yeah. Right. Or even like an alcoholic, an alcoholic going to a rehab center. Right. They have accountability and support there. Right? You know, they get create that foundation where there's abstinence from whatever they're addicted to.

And then there's accountability and and support and not letting the setback. So psychologically there are stages of change. You know we we change. We maintain the change.

Then we relapse is also, you know, part of the natural cycle sometimes. And to to know that and to just go, oh, you know I haven't failed. This is the stage I'm in.

Trauma, Shame, and Support Systems

I can get back on track really quickly versus, you know, I screwed up. Why bother? Or, you know, a month of being, you know, sedate when you know, you should be moving because, I failed.

Why bother? It gets discouraging. Yeah. No. And that brings us to, like, shame and guilt. Because a lot of people, you know, a lot of people's psychology is kind of warped, where when they do make mistakes, right?

Or they relapse or do something that they didn't want to do, right. There's certain certain personality types will just be like, you know what? They just kind of take it as feedback.

You know, I did that. I don't know why I did that didn't really help me. Yeah, I'm not going to do that anymore. Whereas other people it's like this extreme shame and guilt that they that they go through and that's personality that also is related to, you know, childhood adverse events, what kind of support they have.

But you're absolutely right. And then that that sense of fear and shame will stop you. Guilt can sometimes motivate you. There are some positive pieces, but shame will shut you down.

Yeah, no doubt about it. And so what? So what are the things we need? We talked about support and community accountability. We talked about that. How important that is.

I mean, in my head, like any sort of self-sabotage, the first step is just in a sense, it's just awareness, right? I would I would imagine that's kind of the first step, but what what are the steps and strategies that you look at and that you coach people with on this?

Well, the first thing is to again, awareness and to get off the what's wrong with me track, get off the shame track, get off the you know I'm broken track.

Whatever it is. And look at okay, this is data and look at patterns. What trips me up. Look at this is this is just a problem to be solved and I know where it comes from.

So what do I need to put in place? What environment? What what support groups? How do I have? What do I have to change to make things easier for me? And also to really look at what's my response?

You know what I talk about because it really gets back again to that primitive brain, our survival brain. And you know, sometimes it's called your lizard brain.

But I find that people don't really like, relate to that. But if I talk about your toddler brain, that two year old brain inside, you know, are you throwing a tantrum when things go wrong?

Are you avoiding? Are you, you know, ostrich in the sand? So I can use those. I have these, I call them archetypes of what your toddler is, you know, what's the predominant way you self-sabotage and and understanding that, first of all, it gets rid of a lot of shame because.

And we all know what two year olds are like. So it's like, okay, this isn't surprising. This is just my two year old coming out. And how do I deal with my two year old?

I have a four and a half year old that comes out sometimes when I've a, four and a half year old daughter that she has, you know, her share of meltdowns.

Yeah. Yeah. And and what makes kids meltdown, being tired or being hungry. Yeah. Right. So not feeling like they have control sometimes. Right. Exactly, exactly.

And so understanding where it comes from. And then for each archetype like if you let's say so, one of the archetypes I talk about is kind of the diva temper tantrum.

Well, sometimes people will then get down on themselves for that. But recognizing that that's my go to. And if that's my go to, maybe I have to allow myself 60s of temper tantrums, make that okay, and then distract myself by looking at what do I really want?

What's what's the outcome? I really want here? So just, you know, getting that adult brain back online and disrupting the pattern can really help people.

Then look at, oh, okay, I had my little temper tantrum. I know what this is how this works. Now I'm going to get back on on the path. And so really it's it's a way to rewire.

But the way also that I look at it is that people sometimes think rewiring is really hard. You know, versus, okay, and there's some science to back this up that well there are the pathways are there.

They're just underused. So that sounds a lot simpler like oh I just have to you know use this, this road that I, you don't usually go down that my brain doesn't really use versus I have to do this complete rehab on my brain.

And, and sometimes just making it easier for people makes them more likely to be able to go, okay, I can do this. Yeah. That's good. Now we're we're talking about rewiring the brain.

We're talking about basically the neurons that that connect and communicate together. And we always say, you know, neurons that fire together, wire together.

So like sometimes certain experiences can trigger certain thoughts and behaviors and that can create. And the more that we experience that, it becomes like a really like a, like a well-worn kind of pathway going through the woods.

And what we want to do is recondition some of these neural pathways to where we get more desired responses. Right? More desirable emotions. Oh, there's horrible neighbors, right?

That's what we're we're talking about when we talk about rewire the brain. Yeah. So we want to do things differently, disrupt those patterns that are almost like just self propelling.

You know, we don't even think about it. We just immediately go into old patterns. You're right. Like a groove, like a well-worn road. It's the easiest thing to do.

It's familiar is common. It's comfortable, even if it's behavior we don't want. And that's what really throws people, you know? So why am I doing what I don't even want to do?

Well, because that's the way you're wired yourself. And your two year old is running the show right now, and we've got to get you out of that.

Rewiring the Brain Through Awareness

So anything that supports doing things differently, making them easier again, we go back to accountability and support and and learning what works for you.

You know what? We all have had enough experience hopefully that we have some clue about okay, what has worked for me in the past, what? But, you know, gee, I got through school even though I don't like, you know, discipline.

How did I manage that? What worked for me there? What skills can I take from there and generalize them to over here? What do I need to put in place? What again, what has worked for me in the past is likely to work again, so making it easier for people to to accomplish what seems so hard because, you know, there wouldn't be all this talk about how to develop new habits.

It's easy. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, you have to have a desire to want to do it. Yeah. So another thing to do is to really get in in touch. This is more psychological trick.

But to really go back to what do I value? What are my values? Do I value personal growth? Do I value, taking care of business? Do I value learning? Do I value learning being healthy?

And when we do things that are in in opposition to what we value, we create what we call cognitive dissonance. We're uncomfortable. Use that discomfort to your advantage.

Oh, you know, I say I'm a healthy person. I want to be seen as a healthy person. But I'm driving through the drive through at McDonald's. This doesn't feel good.

Let me just drive through. It's really connecting the dots. Yeah. That's good. One thing I've talked about in the past is having a why that makes you cry, right?

So I think this can be really helpful too, with creating that cognitive dissonance. Dissonance. Because if your why is oh, I just want to lose weight, that may not be strong enough right now.

But if your why is I want my kids to look up to me and and to be inspired by my life, I want them to, you know, see me as a healthy, strong person. I want to be there to lift my grandchildren up or, you know, finding some sort of why that that really creates a strong emotional response in you and motivated that we're motivated by pain.

So, yeah, sometimes we're more motivated psychologically by pain and pleasure. So one trick, one strategy is to first ask yourself, what's going to happen if I don't change what is you know, if I don't get healthier, what's going to happen?

Am I going to, you know, be in a nursing home at 65 because I'm obese and can't take care of myself anymore? That should scare the out of you. Yeah. And true.

And then start to go, okay, that's really scary. I don't want that to happen. Here's what I do want to have happen. And here's how I can do that. And to start where you can start, you know, there's some of these are really big goals for people.

And, and I'm comfortable. So, you know, starting where you can start. One thing I like to say is, you know, your goal may be out of your comfort zone, but your first step should be in your comfort zone, so you'll take it.

Otherwise you're not going to move. It's going to be too scary, even if it's something you want. So pick something that's doable to get that motivation going, to get the momentum going and to see results.

Nothing is more motivating than seeing results. Yeah, no doubt they say a journey of a thousand miles begins with a footstep, right? Yeah. And creating that positive momentum cycle with something that's what, you know, a low hanging fruit, right?

In a sense. And people tend to not give themselves credit for what's easy. So it's important to remember to, to keep in mind that even if it was easy, I get credit for this.

I can feel good about that. This was a win, even though it wasn't hard. It doesn't have to be hard to be a big win. Yeah. You know that's so good. That's something that you know my personality type I think I and naturally innately do that.

Like when I get stressed with work or something like that sleep and actually just work helps really reduce the stress. Like just feeling like I produce something like just getting getting something done or right off my to do list helps, like relieve some of that stress or anxiety.

Sure. You know, yeah, it's a small win because we're back in control, you know. And yeah. And that that leads to a sense of safety, a sense of empowerment agency which again helps us feel safe and leads to more positive behaviors.

Yeah. That's so good. So let's talk about these different archetypes you mentioned. You've got this quiz that you're working on with the different Sabbath self-sabotaging archetypes. So let's break those down.

Sure, sure. So the first one that I, I talk about is the diva, which is, you know, I want it my way and I want it now, and I'm going to throw a temper tantrum.

We've all seen that. Oh, yeah. And and that can be of course, that just takes us out of the game as well. And so allowing ourselves to, you know, rant a little bit and then get back on track can really help.

What do you do with a kid who's having a temper tantrum? Distract them. Give them something else to do. Remind them of what they really want. What's your goal here?

The other, one of the other toddler archetypes I call Eeyore, which is the poor me archetype. You know, nothing ever works for me. Nothing changes. I'm. I'm just destined to be a failure.

Values, Motivation, and Small Wins

And and so many people can get into that when things don't go right or they fall off the wagon to go into that poor me stance. And again, I say, go ahead, you know, do 60s of poor me, get it out of your system and then start to look at, what do I really want here?

What what's what have I accomplished in the past? And again, you know, getting anything that gets you more into adult mode again. And for the, for the era, it can be also, reaching out for support so that they don't feel so alone.

Don't feel like such a loser. Don't feel so isolated. There's also the ostrich, which is if I don't see a problem, it isn't there. Avoidance. Like, yeah, the human condition.

So again, recognizing that that's what you're doing, it's avoidance because it doesn't always look like avoidance. You know, I'm cleaning the house instead of going to the gym.

Oh that's a good thing. Well, maybe it isn't. Maybe you're avoiding again the change. So first again recognition. And second taking that small first step that's doable so that, you know, if you're too scared to go to your doctor's appointment, you know, remembering that getting back to your why I want to be healthy, I want to know what I should be doing.

So let me, you know, let me get support here again, another common theme that I see is what I call the Tasmanian devil. Like, let's just create a lot of chaos and drama, and I won't have to look at what I really need to look at.

And, you know, we we stir up ourselves, we stir up everybody around us. This is very, you know, well, I, I can't go to the gym because my dog is throwing up and, you know, or my foot hurts or whatever it is, let's just create a lot of drama and distraction.

And again, knowing that is the first step, recognizing that that's my go to is creating love, because it doesn't look like drama at the start. It looks real.

It looks like, oh, everybody's upset, you know, sort of chicken, little fish. The sky is falling. So again, to recognize that and to step back from it, you know, get a little objective start to ask questions.

What what am I upset about? What's really going on here is, you know, just a great first question is, you know, is that true? Is that am I really as upset?

Is it really as bad as I think it is? And what actually am I not looking at? Again, that sort of avoidance comes in. So these are all ways that we react to, get out of having to change, you know. Yeah.

And, and the other archetype and I think this is cultural, actually, everybody wants to be the rebel, but the rebel is actually almost the hardest archetype to deal with because they don't want to be told what to do, even if it's themselves telling them what to do.

And so it can be really tricky to almost the hardest one to deal with is, is the rebel. And one of the things the rebel has to do is go back to, well, what are my choices here?

I could do this. I could do this. You know, I could, you know, go to the gym. I could sit and watch TV. I could eat pizza. What do I really want to do?

And and get that sense of control back, get that sense of agency back. And again, the disruption serves to just asking those questions serves to get us out of toddler mode, get us out of that primitive brain that is just reacting to a threat.

Yeah. And yeah that's so good. So so so that was that all of the yeah. So they're five. So there five. So you said there is the diva. The diva your you're your ostrich.

The ostrich. Yep. Tasmanian devil and the rebel and the rebel okay. There we go. And people can find a quiz right there that ask them questions. And they can help identify which one they are.

If they if they haven't already kind of figure it out in their head as you went through it. Well, here's the interesting thing that I have found doing this for many years is that it's there's an obvious toddler.

I'll give you myself as an example. For the longest time I thought I was an Eeyore.

Toddler Archetypes of Self-Sabotage

I thought my go to was just, oh, the poor me. That was the toddler I recognized. The toddler you don't recognize, which for me was the ostrich was what was getting me in trouble.

It was what I wasn't looking at, what I was really avoiding. Where was I? Bury my head in the sand that was causing me to not reach my goals. Yeah. That's good.

Yeah. I'm a I believe I'm a fellow ostrich. And we, of course, all have a little bit of everything, but it's the one that is causing the most problem.

And it's always the one. Like, we don't immediately recognize the one we know. We kind of know. It's the one that's driving the car or driving the. The behavior that we don't see that is, is what's derailing us.

Yeah, that's really good to know. So once you recognize this, you go I guess they could find that at your website. And you get this quiz. Right. Then how do you kind of walk them through what they need to do to help kind of reduce the effects of this, this archetype and, and improve their, their ability to accomplish their goals.

Right. So I have a little training video for each archetype that takes you through just some simple steps to to get back into adult mode to comfort. And it's not about punishing the toddler, it's recognizing the toddler.

It's providing good, good comfort that supports you and and getting out of the shame of the behavior and and the steps that, for each toddler, help us get back on track.

And and does it really look different for each of those toddlers? Well, in in theory, it's all the same. In practice, it's different. But they say in theory, theory and practice are the same in practice, not so there are different tricks, you know, just like for any it's very, very common just for any toddler.

You know, depending on what they're doing, you might have a slightly different strategy, but it always involves getting out of toddler mode. Yeah. Getting our brain back online.

Yeah. And probably the way that you communicate, like I have four children and sometimes the way that I communicate, or at least the most effective way to communicate with each of them, is different.

I would say I always communicate like that, but the most effective way can be different for each of them because they have their own unique personality. Exactly.

And then we learn to work with our toddler. You know what? What helps what gets me out of this? But just I think also just the idea that I'm not crazy, I've just let my two inner two year old run the show for a while.

Get gets get you out of that shame which paralyzes me, paralyzes pretty much everybody, and and gets you moving back in the right direction towards the health goals.

And and it's stressful when you start beating yourself up. It not only keeps you from getting your to your goal, it creates a whole other cascade of symptoms of pain.

You know, physical pain, emotional pain, disappointment. Disappointment is huge for kids. They avoid disappointment like the plague, and that carries over into our adulthood.

And we need to recognize that. Yeah. For sure. Well, you know, this has been a great interview because again, I could give all the all the best natural health strategies, but if somebody has internal wiring in their brain is, you know, as they're taking in the content that I'm creating and all the strategies I'm telling them, if they're seeing that as, wow, that's really stressful or, you know, if they're in a sense, going back to self-sabotaging behaviors as they try this, they're not going to be successful.

And so you really have to unlock that first. Yeah. And, and and to be able to get into maintenance because, you know, motivation or that initial excitement will only take you so far.

I see this and you know, all my friends, clients, everybody, you know, we're great at the start and then we start to lose momentum or something goes wrong or we start to sense the danger because this is new.

And who will I be if I become this healthy person? And so we start the self-sabotage cycle. So it's so important to recognize that, you know, those stages of change. You know, unnatural.

And we just need to it's not whether we'll fall off the wagon. It's just how quickly can we get back on. Yeah. What can we put in place that will, you know, get us back into the healthy lifestyle, make it simple.

And sometimes it's just simple. You know, strategies like having, preparing, you know, batch cooking and having good meals in the freezer for when you don't get off work till 8:00.

Yeah, exactly. Or simple things, even simpler things like going to bed early today, like drinking a glass of water. Right. Yeah. And start breathing in sugar.

Just go and drink a glass of water instead. Like that alone will fill your stomach, your release. Ghrelin, which is, you know, block. You'll inhibit ghrelin release, which is your hunger hormone.

You'll have less cravings. So just something simple like that.

Practical Tools for Lasting Change

Sometimes going out for a walk, getting out in fresh air, getting in the sun, stretching or creating stretching can create a positive momentum cycle that will make the next healthy, healthy practice easier.

Oh, yeah. And we want to. Like I said, we want it to be easy. We want to be able to to maintain. So another simple strategy is and this works in, you know, going back to like addiction and change.

Keep some keep it on your radar, you know, keep a a picture on your refrigerator of, you know, when you when you felt at your best. And remember that we need these cues to constantly remember that, oh, this is what I'm going for.

Yeah, exactly. And you can link like you were talking about linking pain to the bad behaviors and linking positive emotions and inspiration to positive behaviors.

Yeah. Looking at what we don't want, that pain will drive us more initially than, oh, I just want to be healthy. Well, yeah, that sounds great. But what's going to happen when you, you know, can't take care of not captivating us?

Yeah, yeah. Needs to be captivating. Needs to scare us or. Yeah, really give a positive like a strong positive emotion to us. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's so important.

Well, doctor Audrey Schnell, this has been a wonderful interview. Again, people can find more information at audreyschnell.com. That's schnellL.com. They can find that, self-sabotage archetype quiz there at the website.

And this has been really enlightening, guys. You can really rewire your brain and break free from the pattern of self-sabotage. Any last words here for our audience, doctor Audrey?

I will just go back to what we almost started talking about, which was get the get a foundation in place, which means sleep, be at your best, and don't go down the road of beating yourself up when things don't go as planned.

Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Give yourself grace. Right. That's key. Key. And a lot of gold stars, even for simple stuff. Yeah. So true. Well, this has been great again, guys, check out the website.

audreyschnell.com for doctor Audrey Schnell and her archetype quiz. So check that out and we'll see you guys in a future interview. Be blessed everybody.

Audrey Schnell

How Self-Sabotage Rewires the Brain—and How to Break the Cycle