Full Transcript Summit Introduction and Guest Welcome 0:00 Welcome everyone to the Gut Health and Longevity Summit. 0:04 I'm so glad you're here, and I want you to take a deep breath right now, 0:08 because what you're about to hear over these sessions could genuinely change 0:13 the way you think about your health, your food, and your future. 0:18 Most people have never been told that one of the biggest questions 0:21 in plant based nutrition is, can you actually get enough protein is. 0:27 And that's one of the biggest questions when it comes to healthy aging 0:31 and gut health. 0:32 And today's expert is here to change that. 0:35 This is a conversation that I've been waiting to have because 0:39 we're going to talk about what plant protein does for your strength, 0:42 your longevity, and the trillions of bacteria living in your gut. 0:48 My next guest has spent decades answering 0:51 the single most common objection to plant based eating. 0:54 Where do you get your protein? 0:56 She has delivered keynotes on this in 28 countries across six continents, 1:01 and she's released a book testing this case with protein and aging. 1:06 Brenda Davis is a past chair of the Vegetarian Nutrition 1:09 Dietetic Practitioner Group of the of Nutrition and Dietetics. 1:14 She was inducted into Vegetarian Hall of Fame in 2007, 1:18 and in 2022 became the seventh recipient of the Plantation Projects Luminary Award. 1:24 She served as a lead dietitian on groundbreaking, 1:27 a randomized controlled trials on type two diabetes on the Marshall Islands. 1:31 We're going to talk a little bit about that. 1:33 She has coauthored 14 books and published dozens of articles. 1:38 And her newest plant powered seniors 1:41 is one of the things we're going to dive deep into now. 1:44 Brenda, welcome. 1:46 I have so many questions for you about protein specifically, 1:49 and I know our audience. That has to. 1:52 So let's dive in because this is like 1:55 such a big yet important topic right. 1:59 So let's let's 2:01 thank you so much for the first question. 2:04 Absolutely. You're very welcome. 2:06 I think that almost every plant 2:10 based eater has been asked about this at least once. 2:13 Where do you get your protein? 2:15 And you have spent your career answering that with real data? 2:19 Where does that question fall 2:21 apart scientifically, and where does it hold real substance? 2:25 So set us up for the stage of what we're going to be talking about today. 2:28 Okay. 2:29 Well, I you know, personally, I think the question falls apart 2:32 when it automatically assumes that protein is synonymous with animal foods
Plant Protein Basics and Protein Quality 2:37 or that plant proteins are somehow incomplete or inferior. 2:42 I think what people need to know is all whole plant foods contain all nine 2:47 essential amino acids, and many plant foods are very protein rich, 2:52 especially in the legume family beans, lentils, peas, soy foods, but even nuts 2:57 and seeds and many whole grains contain, you know, a significant amount of protein. 3:02 And, you know, we've known for decades 3:06 that we don't need to carefully combine proteins. 3:10 If we're eating a varied diet and we're consuming enough calories 3:16 from our food, our bodies can just draw 3:19 from amino acid pools throughout the day. 3:22 And, and and then, you know, in terms of the part 3:25 about the question, you know, where does it have substance? 3:30 Well, I think it has substance when we ask not simply, can I get enough protein 3:34 from plants, but am I actually getting enough protein 3:39 for my age, my activity level and my health status? 3:44 And you know, for most healthy adults who eat enough calories and reasonable 3:49 variety of plant foods, getting enough protein isn't a huge concern. 3:53 But intake can fall short. 3:56 And that's something we often deny in the plant based world. 4:00 But it can fall short, especially for people eating very low 4:03 calorie diets or highly restrictive diets. 4:08 You know, where they're not eating enough 4:09 legumes, soy foods, not seeds, and and those kinds of foods. 4:13 And then there are certain stages of life that require closer attention to protein. 4:18 For example, during pregnancy, lactation and for older adults. 4:22 And so, you know, and then the other part of the equation is protein quality. 4:26 It does matter. 4:27 But I think we actually need to broaden the definition of protein quality, 4:32 because traditionally protein quality was judged by 4:36 digestibility and essential amino acid composition. 4:40 And by those measures, you know, animal protein score very highly. 4:45 Well, plant proteins are sometimes a little less digestible, 4:49 especially if they're hiring fiber. 4:51 And they can also be low in particular acids. 4:54 And so, you know, those kinds of issues are pretty easily addressed with adequate 4:59 total protein and a variety of of protein rich foods. 5:03 But I think protein quality definitions have really failed. 5:09 You know, they failed to factor in what 5:11 the protein source does to our health over the long term. 5:15 Does the food supplying that protein increase or decrease our risk of 5:20 of chronic diseases like cardiovascular disease, type two diabetes and cancer? 5:25 And what does it do to our, you know, risk of premature mortality as well. 5:30 And when we widen that lens, 5:34 the picture changes pretty substantially. 5:36 So you know, if we look at large prospective studies, they consistently 5:41 associate greater intake of plant protein, especially when it replaces 5:45 red and processed meat with lower risk of of cardiovascular disease, type 5:50 two diabetes, cancer and premature mortality. 5:54 And and you know, it makes sense because, you know, 5:59 protein doesn't come to us in isolation. 6:03 You know, food doesn't come in isolation. 6:06 Beans, lentils, soil foods, nuts and seeds. 6:09 You know, package. 6:11 You know, that protein, when it comes in those forms, 6:14 is packaged with fiber and unsaturated fats and phytochemicals. 6:18 Well, plant protein sources come in a very different nutritional package, 6:23 completely devoid of fiber and phytochemicals. 6:25 And that's going to have a different impact on health. 6:28 So, you know, to me, the highest quality protein is one that promotes 6:34 and protects health while still meeting our needs for essential amino acids. 6:40 And viewed through that sort of broader 6:43 lens, plant proteins really do the best. 6:46 So, you know, and I think we can get into trouble 6:49 at sort of both ends of the protein conversation, 6:52 assuming we need loads of animal foods 6:56 or protein supplements on the one hand, or assuming that because we're eating whole 7:01 plant foods, protein is automatically taken care of and we'll never fall short. 7:07 So, you know, for me, the question is, and simply, where do you get your protein? 7:11 It's are you getting enough protein from healthful sources 7:14 to meet your individual needs? 7:16 And of course, thoughtfully planned plant based diets, 7:20 you know, succeed in all of those realms? 7:23 Yeah, absolutely. 7:24 And I think you bring up a very important point here that we're eating. 7:29 But our cells, our body is not getting the nutrients it needs. 7:34 So the question isn't like, okay, are we getting enough protein? 7:37 But I'm also seeing that people are not getting vitamins, 7:40 they're not getting minerals, not getting antioxidants, because 7:43 we're not really eating the variety of food we need to be eating. 7:48 And instead we're actually creating inflammation from too much ultra 7:53 processed food or too much of an animal forward diet. 7:57 So let's talk about you. 7:59 And if I could add, Monisha, a lot of people say we should be aiming 8:02 for 30 different plant foods a week for gut health. 8:06 And in fact, you know, when I saw that, I thought, 8:08 well, I'm just going to add up my numbers for a day. 8:11 And I was up 58000 my God, you're the first person to beat me. 8:15 You're the first one to be out even looking at herbs and spices. 8:19 So you're good. That difficult to do. 8:22 It really isn't. 8:23 And so we really do need to be thinking about fry and, 8:27 and and thinking about growing some of our own foods, 8:31 even if it's just a few mason jars with with sprouts on our countertop. 8:35 So it's and it's fun to kind of play with that. 8:40 Yeah. No, no. Okay. 8:41 So one, you've officially beat me because it's very easy 8:44 for me to get 30 different in a day. 8:46 And I've stopped counting because it's like, literally 8:49 my two meals will definitely have 30 plus. 8:52 I have not gotten as high as you, but you're right about the gardening aspect. 8:57 Like, my mom is a gardener, so like, I was just up there and her garden is full 9:03 of like zucchinis and eggplants and many people, like, I love okra. 9:08 I'm an okra person. 9:09 And most people don't know, like the okra grows up this way,
Protein Needs for Healthy Aging 9:13 like on like or asparagus the way like people have never seen like 9:18 food the way it grows. So I get you. 9:20 So now in your book Plant Powered Seniors, you point to something specific. 9:26 Protein stops being just a numbers game. 9:29 And once you're making the case for healthy aging. 9:32 So what is actually changing 9:35 when it comes to protein needs as we get older. 9:39 And so basically it's like, why did this need a whole book to talk about it? 9:43 Because I can tell you right now when I'm working with individuals 9:47 40 plus, I'm like, what are you guys eating? 9:50 And they're like, oh, I eat so healthy. 9:51 And I'm like, but your blood test and your gut microbiome 9:55 tests, all of this is telling me you have no nutrition in your cells. 9:58 So tell us what is changing as we get older when it comes to protein needs? 10:03 Yeah for sure. 10:04 And just to clarify, the book is about all of the nutrients 10:09 that we need as we get older. 10:12 And it's about, you know, the various diseases 10:15 and conditions of aging and how to manage all of that. 10:18 So it's a little broader than just protein. 10:20 But protein is definitely an issue that we address quite deeply. 10:25 And so first what changes. 10:27 Well younger muscle is super responsive to the immuno acids 10:31 we eat or to the protein we eat that get broken down into the acids. 10:35 But as we get older the response becomes a little blunted. 10:40 And this is known as anabolic resistance. 10:43 And it essentially means that in order to produce the same muscle 10:48 building response as we have when we're younger, older 10:52 people need a bigger stimulus, both from protein and from resistance exercise. 10:58 And at the same time, as we age, we tend to eat less. 11:01 Energy needs typically decline, appetite 11:04 often diminishes, you know, illness becomes more common. 11:09 And yet preserving muscle mass becomes increasingly important. 11:13 So we're facing a bit of a paradox because we need fewer calories. 11:17 But those calories actually need to work harder for us. 11:21 And that's that's one of the reasons that a lot of expert groups recommend 11:27 more than the adult RDA of point 11:30 eight grams of protein per kilogram body weight for older adults. 11:33 And there are several countries that actually have separate order's for 11:37 for seniors or for people 70 plus. 11:39 We don't in North America yet, but still most experts recommend 11:44 a target of around 1 to 1 point 2g/kg body weight for healthy older adults and 11:50 and 1.2 to 1.5 during illness recovery, 11:54 or if a person has malnutrition or certain chronic diseases. 11:58 So but when you know, this is where 12:01 protein stops being sort of just a daily number, 12:04 how it is distributed throughout the day also matters. 12:08 So we we're concerned about total protein intake, but we're also concerned 12:12 about, you know, how it spread throughout the day. 12:16 As our muscles age. 12:18 They respond better when we provide a meaningful amount of protein 12:22 at each meal, 12:23 rather than like what a lot of people do is they have very little at breakfast, 12:27 maybe modern amount at lunch, and most of their protein comes at dinner time. 12:31 And, and, 12:32 you know, so once we actually figure out how much protein we need, 12:36 then if we're eating three meals, we would want to divide that number 12:40 by three and have a reasonably consistent amount at each meal. 12:44 And so, for example, 12:45 someone who needs 75g of protein would be aiming for about 25 per meal. 12:50 And if that person's including a snack, they could aim for 20 a meal and 15 12:54 at their snack. 12:55 And we also want to ensure essential amino acids, 12:59 especially leucine, because that's especially important for protein, 13:03 you know, for what we call MPs or muscle protein synthesis. 13:07 So for people eating plant based diet, you know, a plant based diet, 13:11 this really means being more intentional with our protein intake. 13:15 So protein rich plant foods like beans and lentils 13:19 and soy foods like tofu and tempeh and edamame peas, Satan, 13:23 you know, nuts and seeds, protein rich whole grains. 13:26 You know, these foods should really be featured at every meal. 13:29 And it's also helpful. 13:32 A lot of people drink almond milk or oat milk or, you know, 13:35 some of the lower protein nondairy milk, sorry, milk is much higher protein, 13:41 but it's also higher in other nutrients as well. 13:45 So it makes sense to think about, you know, switching from whatever nondairy 13:51 milk you're using to an unsweetened or, you know, fortified soymilk. 13:57 And then the other thing that is really important to mention 14:01 is resistance training, because it may even need to be to go ahead 14:06 of, you know, the whole conversation 14:08 about protein because we can't eat our way to strong muscles. 14:12 Protein, you know, literally provides our building blocks. 14:16 But resistance exercise provides the signal 14:20 that tells the body what to do with those amino acids. 14:24 And so we need to be resistance training probably 2 or 3 times a week. 14:28 So to me the message in plant, you know, plant power seniors isn't older. 14:33 People need enormous amounts of protein. 14:36 It's more nuanced. 14:37 We need enough protein 14:38 from healthful sources, distributed reasonably well throughout the day. 14:42 And we need to give those amino acids a reason to go into muscle 14:46 by using our muscles. 14:48 So and, you know, preserving muscles isn't just about bodybuilding. 14:52 It's about preserving strength, mobility, independence, all of those things, 14:56 and to keep doing all the things we love. 14:58 So all of those and I should also say, Doctor Monisha, that the book that I wrote 15:03 before plant powered seniors was plant powered protein. 15:07 And so so we looked at, you know, we looked at people 15:11 at every stage of the life cycle in that book. 15:14 So let's give people a little bit more concrete visual on this. 15:19 So if we use like an average, say 15:22 150 or 160 pounds, say 160 pound woman 15:26 and we're giving her 25g of protein, she's eating three meals a day, 15:31 so 75g of protein a day and she's not snacking. 15:36 What would a breakfast, lunch and dinner look like? 15:40 And I think this is really important because I do notice 15:44 that some of my older patients, they will just skip meals altogether. 15:47 They'll forget to eat, then they'll sit down, like you said, 15:50 and have dinner and be like, well, now I'm too full to eat too much, right? 15:54 So they're not getting enough nutrients. 15:56 So what would you like? 15:58 Or we can even say, 15:59 what are you eating to get your your protein throughout the day? 16:03 If we want to not have it at the end of the day, what are some examples? 16:07 Yeah. So it's really easy. 16:09 I you know, I've dealt with a lot of women who whole food plant based diets, 16:13 their diets are, you know, very healthy in terms 16:16 of, of variety and having, you know, choosing 16:20 unprocessed foods or minimally processed foods and all of that. 16:24 And they're coming in at 35 or 40g of protein, 16:27 and they're starting to see symptoms of things like, you know, 16:30 their skin breaks and Terry's easily their hair is falling out. 16:33 They you know, these some of them even notice, you know, 16:37 enlarged abdomen and things like that, which is shocking to me. 16:41 But anyway, they I take them from about 35 16:44 or 40g to 60 or 70g, depending on the body size. 16:47 And this is a really important point. 16:50 It's not your requirement is not based on 16:53 your actual weight, it's based on your healthy weight. 16:56 And so if you weigh 160 pounds, that's a very good point. 17:00 Weight is 130 pounds. 17:02 You base your protein needs on 130. 17:05 Same token, if you're if you're underweight, you're basing
Meal Planning for Adequate Plant Protein 17:09 your needs on your healthy body weight, not your actual weight. 17:13 Why is that? Explain that. 17:14 Because I'm recalculating my protein as we speak now. 17:18 Yeah. So so it's very simple. 17:21 Fat doesn't require the same amount of protein as as muscle. 17:25 And, you know, just your general maintenance. 17:28 So what you need is, is what your healthy body would need. 17:31 You don't need extra because you're carrying an extra 30 pounds of fat. 17:36 If you're underweight, you don't want to base your needs on your actual weight 17:40 because you need more protein to get to your healthy body weight. 17:44 So that's, you know, that is simply explains that. 17:48 But getting to, you know, what do I do and what can people do to increase 17:54 protein. 17:54 So let's take you know, I'll take what I eat in a typical day, 17:59 but I'll also, you know, explain 18:02 what people how people often eat versus, 18:06 you know, the things that I do to get my protein to where it needs to be. 18:09 So for breakfast, my breakfast is, you know, this morning 18:12 it was, you know, berries, quinoa and lentils. 18:16 I cook whole grains and lentils together as a base of my breakfast bowl. 18:21 And then I add a chia pudding that I've actually 18:24 blended hemp seeds into using soy milk. 18:27 So I'm boosting protein even further. 18:29 And then I add the 18:31 and I sweeten it with prunes like I, you know, that's blended in. 18:34 So I, you know, do it that way. 18:36 So it's all cool foods and then lots of berries and fruits and, 18:41 you know, mixed seeds and nuts and on top and, 18:45 and maybe even a little my dehydrated granola. 18:48 And I always consume it with soymilk, which has about eight 18:52 grams of protein per. 18:54 Compared with Allman, that might be one. 18:56 Some melts are around four, but but some still around double that. 19:01 And so my breakfast easily provides 25, you know, 20 to 25g of protein. 19:06 Now, if someone's having a bowl of oatmeal with almond milk 19:10 and a few berries on top, maybe a sprinkle of flax seeds, they'll be under 19:15 ten grams of protein if they're consuming that with almond milk. 19:19 But just by adding a couple tablespoons of hemp seeds and soy milk, 19:23 they're adding another 15g of protein just just like that. 19:27 So it's it's actually pretty easy to get to where you need 19:30 if you add things like hemp seeds and soy milk and then lunch. 19:35 My lunch is always, almost always a giant salad. 19:38 And so I use all sorts of different greens, herbs, sprouts, 19:42 and then every color of the rainbow. 19:44 I try to get every single color of vegetables and fruit into that salad. 19:50 And then I always add some sort of either grain or starchy vegetables. 19:55 So it might be little, you know, butternut squash cubes 19:58 or sweet potato cubes or quinoa or something like that. 20:02 And then I add protein and it's often two different types of protein. 20:07 So today I had avocado. 20:10 But often I have a little home, almost always have tofu. 20:14 So little tofu cubes and sometimes chickpeas, 20:18 sometimes other, you know, edamame, things like that. 20:22 And then my salad dressing is never like these free sugar based dressings. 20:28 I would never want to put that on my salad because two reasons. 20:32 One, I actually want my dressing to enhance 20:36 the absorption of the nutrients from that salad. 20:39 There needs to be some fat there. 20:41 I always choose a fat source on top of my dressing as well. 20:45 So today I do have a. 20:46 I may have some pumpkin seeds, but I'll always choose at least one. 20:51 And then in my dressing it's almost always tahini and hemp seed base. 20:55 So teeny and hemp seeds blended with lemon juice and garlic 20:59 and ginger and all of those kinds of wonderful things. 21:03 And and so what you're putting on your salad adds nutrition, 21:07 but it also adds healthy fats that help you to absorb 21:11 those really important phytochemicals and fat soluble nutrients. 21:15 And and then, like 21:17 today, I have to admit, I really like to have some sort of treat. 21:20 Often it's 21:20 just a piece of fruit, like an orange or an apple or something like that. 21:24 But but today I actually I'm one of my very favorite trees is 21:28 I freeze a banana on a stick, then I roll it in some sort of 21:34 nut butter, and I take like an 85% chocolate and just do a little, you know, 21:38 swirl of the chocolate and then quickly roll it in nuts like walnuts and seeds. 21:43 I love the seeds and then refreeze it. 21:46 And that's one of my very favorite treats. 21:48 So I love treats, but they're nutritious treats. 21:51 And then dinner, of course, is, you know, often being or lentil based. 21:56 Tonight I'm having an egg plant chini fresh 21:59 tomato dish that has lentils in it. 22:03 And you know, I have that with a little bit of kale salad or something like that. 22:08 So that's a very typical dinner. 22:10 I like chili and stir fries. 22:13 I love bowls with, you know, quinoa and then all the steamed vegetables 22:18 and then the protein on top with a nice spicy peanut sauce. 22:22 So those are the kinds of things that I would do. 22:24 But at each meal. 22:25 So for lunch you want to think where where is my protein. 22:29 So adding the tofu cubes adds about 15g easily. 22:34 It's only like even just a third of a couple of them. 22:37 And so the etymology. 22:39 The even the dressing I'll add some protein, pumpkin seeds and so forth. 22:44 And then at dinner, there's always some sort of legume feature. 22:48 And, you know, sometimes we even have a little bit of veggie meat. 22:52 If we're doing going for a barbecue, we'll bring a veggie burger 22:56 or something like that. 22:57 It's not a regular feature in the diet, but it can play a role. 23:01 And these are also very concentrated protein sources. 23:05 So, you know, that's kind of how I do it. 23:08 And I just think about even when I'm making a pudding like a pudding, 23:11 I would use a protein rich milk instead of Ormond milk or something like that. 23:16 Yeah I probably have sway throughout my day. 23:19 So I'll usually do a milk latte. 23:23 And then for lunch today I had lettuce wraps 23:26 with tempeh and quinoa and then all the veggies on it. 23:30 And for dinner, I've got a wedge salad with the rainbow 23:34 color of veggies and a block of tofu baked tofu. 23:38 So and I'm adding the hemp seeds just to get that extra ten grams to that. 23:43 That's right. 23:44 So let's talk about gut health. 23:47 Right. 23:48 So protein doesn't just affect muscle. 23:51 It also affects what's happening in the colon. 23:54 So what does research show about how plant protein versus 23:59 animal protein shapes the gut microbiome. 24:03 Well I just find this area so fascinating 24:06 because of course when we eat protein, we're not just feeding ourselves. 24:09 We're we're feeding our microbes. 24:11 And so, you know, most dietary protein is digested and absorbed 24:15 in the small intestine, but some protein and nino acids 24:19 will reach the colon where bacteria metabolize them. 24:22 And what happens there depends sort of partly on 24:26 what else arrives with that protein. 24:28 And they're they're really two broad types of fermentation. 24:31 The first is sacroiliac fermentation. 24:34 It's it's simply microbial 24:36 fermentation of carbohydrates, especially fiber and resistant starch. 24:40 And it's this type of, of fermentation that produces 24:44 short chain fatty acids like acetate, propionate and butyrate. 24:48 And butyrate is especially important because it nourishes the cells that line 24:52 the pole, and it helps support a healthy intestinal barrier. 24:56 The second type of fermentation is proteolytic fermentation. 25:00 And this is, you know, microbial metabolism of of proteins 25:04 and amino acids. 25:05 And it's a normal part of gut metabolism, too. 25:09 And I don't want to suggest that everything it produces is harmful. 25:13 But some amino acid metabolites, you know, are not so great, 25:17 somehow beneficial functions. 25:18 But but when we eat a large amounts of protein, the environment, it produces 25:24 an environment that's really short on for mental carbohydrate. 25:28 And we see greater production of compounds like ammonia and phenols and sulfur 25:32 containing metabolites that in excess could have less favorable impacts. 25:38 And this is where I think the protein package becomes really critical 25:42 as a state gives protein, but it doesn't give any fiber. 25:47 Phytochemicals. 25:48 Whereas a bowl of lentils lentils will give us protein 25:51 along with the fiber and resistant starch and the phytochemicals. 25:55 And so while we're providing amino acids for ourselves, we're simultaneously 26:00 providing fermentable carbohydrate for our microbes. 26:03 And the same principles apply to other whole plant 26:08 foods like beans and piece and soil foods and nuts and seeds and all of that. 26:13 And along with protein, they bring fiber and, 26:16 you know, pretty impressive array of phytochemicals. 26:19 And so that combination tends to support a mars environment 26:24 and the production of beneficial for chain fatty acids. 26:29 And then our microbes can respond really quickly to dietary changes. 26:34 So when we compare very plant rich versus very animal rich dietary patterns,
Plant Protein and Gut Microbiome Health 26:40 we can see shifts in microbial communities and microbial metabolism 26:45 within, you know, a few days. 26:48 So the big question to me isn't simply is, you know, 26:51 is this plant or animal protein. 26:53 It's what does the protein actually come packaged with. 26:57 And you know, 26:58 I think that's the greatest advantage of one of the greatest advantages of 27:01 getting our protein from plants, 27:03 because then we can feed our muscles and our microbes all at the same time. 27:07 Yeah, absolutely. 27:08 So with that, so what you're saying is that same food that builds 27:14 muscle also is feeding the bacteria that is protecting our gut lining. 27:19 And I think that's the part that most people are missing 27:22 when it comes to plant protein. 27:25 I feel like there is a trend right now 27:28 going around about eating only protein and so much protein. 27:33 So we're talking about over 100g, 120g, 130, 150g, 27:38 whether that's animal or plant based, the conversations about eating 27:43 excess protein and there's only so much individual can eat in the day. 27:47 So when you do that, you're eliminating some of the other nutrients like 27:51 fruits, vegetables, whole grains, all that kind of stuff. 27:54 So when you wrote your book on plant protein, 27:58 did you see any research on what 28:01 excess protein does to the body like? 28:05 Because the body can only convert so much? 28:07 I mean, I know I wrote it in my book, 28:08 so I'm just curious what you put in your book. 28:10 If we if we eat more than our body can handle. 28:14 Yeah. 28:14 I mean, if we eat more than our body can handle, it gets. 28:17 And if we're eating more, more calories from protein than we need, 28:20 it gets converted to, you know, storage forms of calories. 28:24 So it gets converted to fat and gets stored. 28:28 It doesn't go directly to the muscles to build big muscles. 28:32 It just, you know, 28:33 let's let's just repeat that because it did have a loss of a little bit of signal. 28:37 So when you eat excess protein requirement then your body requires 28:43 that same protein can turn into 28:46 fat not into building muscle. 28:49 Is that correct? Absolutely. 28:51 So we have to do something with the excess. 28:55 I mean, if you're doing a lot of resistance training, 28:59 you'll use a fair bit of protein. 29:00 But, you know, even even with that, if you eat excess calories, 29:05 the body has to store those excess calories. 29:09 So of course, to store excess protein, we turn it into fat. 29:13 And, you know, shuttle it to our unlimited ability 29:17 to store, you know, calories and adipose tissue. 29:22 And sometimes, you know, and this isn't a good thing. 29:25 Sometimes we exceed our capacity to be 29:28 shuttling this stuff to, to our adipose tissue. 29:31 And it gets shuttled to places 29:32 like our liver and, and, you know, our vital organs. 29:36 And when it does that, it it impacts metabolic health 29:40 hugely in a very negative way. 29:43 And so we don't want to be over consuming anything in protein included. 29:49 And then of course, depending on the source of protein, over 29:52 consuming protein for some people may mean over consuming red and processed meat, 29:58 which we know is a risk factor for cancer. 30:01 And it can increase our risk, especially of colorectal cancer. 30:04 And and then there's just all sorts of negative impacts, 30:07 because that package is sometimes very rich in saturated fat, increasing, 30:14 you know, insulin resistance and doing all sorts of nasty 30:18 things in terms of blood cholesterol levels and so forth. 30:21 So, you know, but even if we're eating, you know, our protein from relatively 30:27 healthy sources, if we eat too much, it's still going to get converted and stored. 30:33 Yeah. Yeah. 30:34 All right. 30:34 So you are the lead dietitian on a randomized control trial, reversing 30:38 type two diabetes on the Marshall Islands. 30:41 What did that work teach you about protein, whole plant foods 30:46 and metabolic disease that you couldn't have learned from a lab alone? 30:51 Well, you know, I the Marshall Islands was a 30:54 very rich and rewarding experience. 30:57 It's a very different culture. 30:59 And I you know, I think what it taught me most was that 31:03 nutrition science only becomes powerful when people actually live it. 31:06 And, you know, and it was, you know, it was a marshallese underwent 31:12 an extraordinary nutrition transition over the years because they, of course, 31:16 traditionally lived on whatever grew 31:19 on the land and whatever they could catch from the sea. 31:22 So it was mainly things like coconut, breadfruit, 31:25 taro, pandanus, you know, those were key foods. 31:29 And of course, whatever, whatever seafood they, they could get. 31:33 And then, you know, they became very urgent. 31:36 People shifted to living mainly on two islands. 31:39 And, and there were too many people on the island to rely on local foods. 31:44 So they started to import cheap foods because they're quite poor. 31:48 And, and so things like sticky rice and, and, you know, meat, 31:52 especially processed meat like spam and chicken and ramen noodles and donuts 31:56 and pancakes and their favorite beverage, you know, it's called luau. 32:01 And the number one ingredient is high fructose corn sirup. 32:04 And one of the things that shocked me when I, 32:06 when I lived there for eight months doing this research, was the kids. 32:10 One of their favorite snacks was dry ramen noodles, 32:13 and they would pour Kool-Aid powder on top for flavoring. 32:19 And I even once saw a kid putting this white powder on top. 32:23 And I asked this Marshallese that I was with at the time, 32:26 what are they putting on the Roman noodles?
Excess Protein and Metabolic Health 32:28 And they said, oh, that's a cinnamon toast, which is pure MSG. 32:33 So, I mean, I 32:34 couldn't design a diet to induce diabetes any better than the diet they've adopted. 32:38 And in fact, you know, they have one of the highest rates of diabetes 32:42 in the world because they're genetically designed to withstand famine. 32:47 And here we are. 32:48 You know, here they are with all of these ultra processed, hyper palatable foods. 32:52 And so and, you know, whole plant foods, especially legumes, vegetables, 32:56 whole grains are really minor players in their in their diet. 33:00 And, you know, our intervention participants were averaging about 5 33:04 to 10g of fiber a day before they came into the study. 33:08 And so, you know, when we introduced a diet centered around 33:11 whole plant foods, these foods weren't particularly familiar to the people. 33:15 And yet the people loved the food. 33:18 They had no preconceived notions of tofu or beans or anything like that. 33:22 I remember once funniest thing, we made a bean dish and we did include 33:27 coconut milk, which we make using their local coconut and squeezing it 33:32 and but anyway, I I'll never forget one woman who had never eaten 33:37 beans before tasted them and said, these beans are as good as ice cream. 33:42 And I was just like, 33:44 doesn't get any better than that when somebody says something like that. 33:47 Especially people that love ice cream. 33:50 And, you know, it was pretty cool. 33:52 And people, you know, the changes that we saw weren't just in in blood 33:56 tests, like we, you know, people could could really feel them. 33:59 So constipation was extremely common. 34:02 In fact, we had people, 34:04 you know, generally averaging 1 or 2 bowel movements a week. 34:08 We one of the guys in 34:10 our first intervention had not had a ball movement for 13 days. 34:14 And yeah, just brutal. 34:16 And then suddenly here they are eating 40 or 50g of fiber a day on the program. 34:21 And you know, they started, of course, having bowel movements every day. 34:25 And some were actually worried about it 34:27 because it was so different from what they considered normal. 34:31 And we had to reassure them that they were going to be perfectly fine. 34:34 And it was actually a really positive change. 34:36 And and so, you know, just just unbelievable. 34:40 We didn't measure the microbiome directly. 34:42 So I can't tell you exactly what what changed. 34:45 But but we you know, we profoundly changed the organisms that were available.
Marshall Islands Diabetes Trial Insights 34:51 If you're changing about movement from once a week to every day, 34:57 that is going to change the microbiome in a positive way 35:01 and the trajectory of their health in a positive way. 35:03 Solutely and, you know, we saw an incredible changes 35:08 in their metabolic health. 35:09 By by 12 weeks their a onesie had fallen an average of two percentage points. 35:13 And fasting glucose was down about 72mg per deciliter 35:17 in the first two weeks and about 45 by three months. 35:21 And, you know, insulin resistance 35:23 improved, you know, all their measures of metabolic health improved. 35:27 And it wasn't even just about blood sugar. 35:29 We saw changes in way, way circumference, triglycerides, 35:32 blood pressure, insulin resistance, inflammation. 35:36 You know, HSC, AAP fell about 2mg/l in the intervention group with at 12 weeks. 35:42 So and 23% of our participants who had a baseline, a one 35:46 C under 9% actually achieved remission in the study. 35:49 So when I say we changed the metabolic environment, I really mean that we 35:54 we weren't manipulating one nutrient or one biomarker. 35:58 We change, you know, carbohydrate quality, fat quality, 36:01 fiber intake, protein sources, energy density, all of those things. 36:05 And, and those combined changes and the added physical activity 36:10 and other lifestyle changes just transformed their lives. 36:14 And, you know, and that kind of brings us back to protein. 36:17 We weren't just replacing animal protein with plant protein. 36:20 We were changing the package that the protein came in. 36:23 And and, you know, adding the fiber and resistant starch 36:26 and micronutrients and phytochemicals and and so, you know, 36:31 we really need to to be thinking about that. 36:34 And I think, you know, 36:36 one of it's one of the biggest lessons that we learned from the Marshall Islands. 36:40 And nutrient doesn't walk into the body alone. 36:43 It kind of arrives as part of a bigger, 36:47 you know, package and an entire dietary pattern. 36:52 And so, you know, another thing that that I have to mention is participants 36:56 consistently told us they experience less pain, less disability, 37:00 clearer thinking, better sleep, and of course, way less constipation. 37:04 And they discovered new foods. 37:06 They felt different. 37:07 The clinical markers improved so much. 37:10 And medication it was, you know, 60, 37:13 70% less medication that they needed. 37:16 So it was a pretty profound experience. 37:19 And, you know, I you know, I feel really honored to have been part of it. 37:24 And and I, I just, you know, I just admire what the people 37:29 were able to do there so much because it was so foreign to them. 37:32 But many have actually retained a largely plant based diet. 37:37 Many still eat fish, which makes sense because they live on an island 37:41 and that's easily accessible and it's you. 37:44 No good food for them. So it, 37:47 you know, but they eat way more plants than they used to, that's for sure. 37:51 Okay, so here's the question. 37:53 Did you try spam? No. 37:57 You couldn't pay me to try spam. 38:00 My gosh, when you got the 38:02 the sodium and the fat content of spam, it is unbelievable. 38:07 And I think it's why people get so addicted to it. 38:09 Because it's like a half a can is like 4000mg of sodium 38:14 or some ridiculous thing like that, and 38:17 that you're exceeding your upper limit for the day. 38:20 And at one serving, it's just it's quite 38:23 an interesting food, I must say, I must say. 38:26 Very interesting. 38:28 All right. 38:28 So now there's an entire industry built around plant 38:32 protein, protein bars, fortified protein snacks. 38:37 I'm even seeing, like, you know, like snacks, saying plant protein now. 38:42 And so they're marketed as an easy fix. 38:45 And as someone who has spent decades in Whole Foods plant based nutrition, 38:50 what's your honest take on those products and what would you tell something? 38:54 Tell someone who's reaching for one of those instead of reaching for food? 38:58 Like, what do they need to be aware of? 39:01 Well, they need to be 39:02 aware that it's not just protein that's coming in that package. 39:06 There's often a lot of sugar, a lot of fat, you know, flavors, colors, whatever. 39:11 And so this is a very highly processed food 39:13 just because of food has, you know, proteins flashed across it. 39:17 And we've always put a bit of a halo on protein. 39:20 It doesn't make it a healthy food by any stretch. 39:23 To the imagination. 39:24 My preference is always food first 39:26 when I lentils, tofu, tempeh, and mommy, all of those kinds of foods. 39:31 I'm not, you know, just getting protein. 39:33 You're getting all of the other things that come with it. 39:36 And but, you know, all of that having been said, I don't think 39:41 we need to always Pooh Pooh protein powders. 39:44 And, you know, 39:46 we don't have to put them in a camp that, you know, never consume them. 39:50 Because even though it's much more isolated food, it 39:54 you know, it it delivers protein very efficiently. 39:58 And sometimes 40:00 that can be really helpful for certain people. 40:02 And that's especially true for, you know, maybe for some athletes, 40:06 for older adults, it can be true, especially someone who's 40:10 frail, recovering from illness, struggling to maintain their weight, 40:14 or they just can't eat enough to meet their protein needs. 40:18 A protein powder, you know, can can be, I think, useful. 40:23 And, you know, I become concerned when the supplement industry convinces 40:29 healthy people that they need all of these protein, 40:32 you know, bars and powders and all of that. 40:35 It, you know, adding protein, as I mentioned, doesn't make a food healthy. 40:40 And and, you know, the, 40:43 you know, you just want to ask yourself, do I actually need more protein? 40:47 And if you do ask yourself, what's the best way for me to get it? 40:50 And if you can meet your needs with Whole Foods, it's 40:54 really ideal because you're getting so much more than just protein. 40:58 But if you're still falling short, you can you can consider 41:01 protein powder as a way to close the gap. 41:04 But if you do, quality matters and you know 41:08 you want to choose a relatively simple product 41:10 from a reputable company, I would say that independently third party 41:14 certified for purity and contaminants such as heavy metals, we don't necessarily
Protein Supplements and Practical Takeaways 41:19 need a long list of fillers, sweeteners, colors, herbs. 41:22 You know, all of those things. 41:24 I you know, you just want a product that delivers good quality 41:27 protein cleanly and simply, and most people don't need it. 41:30 I have never used, one of those products in my life. 41:34 I just it's just unnecessary for me. 41:38 Protein bars, I think, require a lot more scrutiny because they vary hugely. 41:43 Some are reasonable convenience foods, but others are candy bars 41:49 with added protein. 41:50 And so you know, you want many are. 41:53 Yeah, many. 41:54 And you want to look beyond that sort of protein number on the front of the package 41:58 and look at the ingredient list because you want to see what it contains. 42:02 And if it's, you know, sugar and fat are the first two ingredients, it's 42:06 probably not a good plan to be buying that protein bar. 42:09 So, you know, sort of in summary, 42:12 Whole Foods should build the foundation. 42:15 Protein supplements can fill gaps if absolutely necessary. 42:20 And, you know, for most people they're not at all necessary. 42:23 So last question, and I want this to be concrete 42:26 because someone listening that's spent years worrying 42:29 about the can't get enough protein, especially without meat. 42:32 And because, I mean, just like you, I have this conversation all the time. 42:36 Like I just can't live without it. 42:38 And they worry alone that they can't get enough without with just eating plants. 42:44 What is the one thing you would tell them to do this week? 42:49 And let's be specific, what should they do this week? 42:51 Well, boy I there's several things I can 42:54 I say okay I'll, I'll let you do three, I'll let you do three things. 42:57 Yeah. 42:58 Because I think the first thing they need to do is assess 43:01 how much they're actually eating. 43:03 So because a lot of people are surprised when they calculate 43:06 the numbers, they're actually surprised how much they're getting. 43:10 And so I think that's step number one. 43:12 Know how would you calculate it. 43:14 Like I know how I calculate it. 43:16 You can just use one of the programs online, the free nutritional analysis 43:21 programs that that's probably the easiest way for most people to do it. 43:26 And then number two is you 43:28 want to boost your intake of protein rich plant foods if you're falling short. 43:33 And so you're just making some simple swaps like using mouth instead of almond 43:38 milk, using adding lentils or beans to suit, putting tofu or tempeh 43:42 or edamame on your salad, adding hemp seeds to your dressings, things like that. 43:47 And convenience counts. 43:49 You can, if you know having a plant based meat alternative 43:53 or protein powder helps you to reach those needs you. 43:56 You know it's reasonable to to include those on occasion. 44:01 And then the other thing, the third thing I would say 44:04 is to think about distribution you don't want at all at one meal. 44:09 You want it spread across the day. 44:11 So, you know, assess it, boost it and spread it. 44:15 That's great. 44:16 I'm going to add a 1.5 in between there because I think this is 44:21 this is a key point that you mentioned earlier is once you calculate 44:26 it based off of your healthy weight, 44:30 not your current weight, I think that is a key. 44:34 So we got one. 44:35 We got 1.52 and three. Okay. 44:37 Perfect. 44:38 Brenda, this has been genuinely reassuring. 44:41 The idea that protein was never the reason 44:44 to avoid plants and might actually be the reason to eat 44:48 more of them, is a message that I want everyone to carry with them today. 44:53 Brenda can be found at Brenda Davis, 44:57 and I encourage you to look up all of her books, 45:00 her library books on plant based nutrition. 45:03 And I think the key takeaway for the audience today is 45:08 protein was never a reason to avoid plants, 45:12 and it might be the one reason to eat more of them. 45:16 So thank you so much Brenda and everyone else. 45:20 Stay tuned for another episode. 45:22 Thank you so much, doctor. 45:24 It was really wonderful to be with you. 45:26 And I think if I could say one last thing, it's that, you know, 45:30 the benefits of moving towards plants and choosing 45:33 plant protein rich foods extend so far beyond ourselves. 45:37 They have, 45:39 you know, the ability to lighten our impact on the planet 45:42 and reduce suffering for animals. 45:44 And, you know, so it's it's like a win win win. 45:47 With every meal, we have the opportunity to nourish ourselves, 45:50 protect the planet, and extend our circle of compassion. 45:54 Absolutely. Thank you so much, Brenda. 45:57 Thank you, doctor Monisha. Take care.
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